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Ïîõîæèå òåìû

  1. Òîðàêàëüíàÿ õèðóðãèÿ (õèðóðãèÿ îðãàíîâ ãðóäíîé êëåòêè)
    îò www.nedug.ru â ðàçäåëå Íîâîñòè î çäîðîâüå è êðàñîòå
    Îòâåòîâ: 1
    : 13.11.2005, 17:58
  2. Îòâåòîâ: 26
    : 01.09.2004, 19:30
  3. Äåêîìïðåññèâíàÿ õèðóðãèÿ ïðè èøåìè÷åñêîì èíñóëüòå
    îò cherry@fosta.ge â ðàçäåëå Íåâðîëîã è íåéðîõèðóðã
    Îòâåòîâ: 4
    : 01.09.2004, 19:30
  4. Êðèòè÷åñêèé ïåðèîä ïðè ãåìîððàãè÷åñêîì èíñóëüòå ?
    îò olgaval â ðàçäåëå Íåâðîëîã è íåéðîõèðóðã
    Îòâåòîâ: 2
    : 01.09.2004, 19:30
  5. Îòâåòîâ: 2
    : 05.08.2004, 16:31
  1. monky2004
    #1
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Òðè ÐÊÈ ïðîäîëæàþòñÿ, îäíî çàêîí÷åíî, íî ðåçóëüòàòû íå îïóáëèêîâàíû.[/URL] Åñòü ëè îïûò õèðóðãè÷åñêîé äåêîìïðåññèè ïðè îáøèðíûõ ïîëóøàðíûõ èíôàðêòàõ ìîçãà â Ðîññèè è êàêîå îòíîøåíèå ê ýòîìó âìåøàòåëüñòâó â ìèðå?

    Ñ óâàæåíèåì.



    Êàêîå ìíåíèå â ìèðå Âû ñàìè íàïèñàëè - èäóò ÐÊÈ, êîòîðûå (ìîå ìíåíèå, ïî îïûòó ïðåäûäóùèõ ) íå äàäóò êàêîãî-ëèáî "îêîí÷àòåëüíîãî" ðåçóëüòàòà.



     Ðîññèè îïûò äóìàþ ÷òî íåáîëüøîé. Ó ìåíÿ â Èíñòèòóòå ìû èíîãäà èñïîëüçóåì äåêîìïðåññèþ â ñõîäíûõ ñèòóàöèÿõ - íàïðèìå ïðè ÑÀÊ - êëèïïèðîâàíèè àíåâðèçìû - âûðàæåííûé âàçîñïàçì - âòîðè÷íàÿ èøåìèÿ. Ðåçóëüòàòû - ìÿãêî ãîâîðÿ íå ñèëüíî ðàäóþò, ôóíêöèîíàëüíàÿ âûæèâàåìîñòü ïëîõàÿ, õîòÿ îáùàÿ ëó÷øå.



    Îïûò (íå î÷åíü ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûé) ÿïîíöåâ ãîâîðèò î òîì, ÷òî âûæèâàåìîñòü ðàñòåò, à âîò "ôóêöèîíàëüíàÿ âûæèâàåìîñòü" íåò - ò.å. àíàëîãè÷åí íàøåìó.



    PS - ïî îïûòó ðåçóëüòàòîâ äî ñèõ ïî ïðîâåäåííûõ ÐÊÈ â õèðóðãèè è íåéðîõèðóðãèè â ÷àñòíîñòè - ìíå êàæåòñÿ ÷òî â îòëè÷èè îò òåðàïèè (êàðäèîëîãèè, íåâðîëîãèè è ò.ä. è ò.ï.) - ÐÊÈ â õèðóðãèè ïîêà âûãëÿäÿò "òóïèêîâîé âåòâüþ ýâîëþöèè", ò.í. "ðåçóëüòàòû" îáû÷íî: âî-ïåðâûõ íå äàþò îêîí÷àòåëüíîãî îòâåòà; âî-âòîðûõ î÷åíü âëèÿåò âàðèàáåëüíîñòü õèðóðãîâ (âñïîìíèì õîòÿáû CEA trials, ãäå ñðåäè âûâîäîâ äîìèíèðîâàëî ðàçäåëåíèå õèðóðãîâ ïî îñëîæíåíèÿì è ò.ä.); â òðåòüèõ - õèðóðãèÿ âñå-òàêè ýòî "ýêñêëþçèâ" è "èíäïîøèâ" â âûñîêîì ïîíèìàíèè ýòîãî ñëîâà

  2. cherry@fosta.ge
    #2
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Ñìåðòíîñòü ïðè îáøèðíîì ïîëóøàðíîì èíôàðêòå ìîçãà îêîëî 80% (â ÐÔ, äóìàþ, áîëüøå). Îò 30 äî 50% â òå÷åíèå ïåðâîãî ìåñÿöà ïîãèáàþò îò îòåêà ìîçãà. Ìåäèêàìåíòîçíîå ëå÷åíèå ôàêòè÷åñêè îòñóòñòâóåò. Õèðóðãè÷åñêàÿ äåêîìïðåññèÿ (ãåìèêðàíèýêòîìèÿ) ìîæåò áûòü æèçíåñïàñàþùåé îïåðàöèåé, íî â òî æå âðåìÿ ìîæåò óâåëè÷èâàòü êîëè÷åñòâî âûæèâøèõ ñ òÿæåëîé èíâàëèäíîñòüþ. Òðè ÐÊÈ ïðîäîëæàþòñÿ, îäíî çàêîí÷åíî, íî ðåçóëüòàòû íå îïóáëèêîâàíû. (http://www.strokecenter.org/trials/InterventionDetail.asp?therapyName=ints/intPage69.htm) Åñòü ëè îïûò õèðóðãè÷åñêîé äåêîìïðåññèè ïðè îáøèðíûõ ïîëóøàðíûõ èíôàðêòàõ ìîçãà â Ðîññèè è êàêîå îòíîøåíèå ê ýòîìó âìåøàòåëüñòâó â ìèðå?

    Ñ óâàæåíèåì.

  3. kitten
    #3
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Îïûò (íå î÷åíü ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûé) ÿïîíöåâ ãîâîðèò î òîì, ÷òî âûæèâàåìîñòü ðàñòåò, à âîò "ôóêöèîíàëüíàÿ âûæèâàåìîñòü" íåò - ò.å. àíàëîãè÷åí íàøåìó.

    Ýòî íå ñîâñåì òàê. Âîò, íàïðèìåð: (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abs tract&list_uids=15518850)

    Mori K, Nakao Y, Yamamoto T, Maeda M. Early external decompressive craniectomy with duroplasty improves functional recovery in patients with massive hemispheric embolic infarction: timing and indication of decompressive surgery for malignant cerebral infarction. Surg Neurol. 2004 Nov; 62(5):420-9



    Department of Neurosurgery, Juntendo University, Izunagaoka Hospital, Shizuoka, Japan.



    BACKGROUND: Extensive cerebral hemispheric infarction associated with massive brain swelling is known as malignant infarction because of the rapid clinical deterioration and mortality as high as 80% unless appropriate treatment is performed. Decompressive craniectomy is an effective treatment, but patient selection, timing, functional recovery, and complications remain unclear. METHODS: Seventy-one patients with massive embolic hemispheric infarctions (infarct volume >200 cm(3)) associated with brain swelling were retrospectively divided into 3 groups according to the therapeutic modalities: 21 patients were treated conservatively (conservative group); 50 patients were treated by external decompressive craniectomy with duroplasty in 2 groups; 29 patients treated after the appearance of clinical and radiologic findings of brain herniation (late surgery group); and 21 patients treated before the onset of brain herniation (early surgery group). RESULTS: The mortality at 1 and 6 months in the conservative group were 61.9% and 71.4%, respectively. The mortality at 1 and 6 months in the late surgery group were significantly improved to 17.2% and 27.6%, respectively, (p < 0.01) and in the early surgery group were further improved to 4.8% and 19.1%, respectively. The functional recovery of the patients was estimated by the Glasgow Outcome Scale (GOS) and Barthel Index (BI) at 6 months after the ictus. The GOS scores of the early surgery group were significantly better than that of the late surgery group (p < 0.05). The mean BI score of the survivors in the late surgery group (26.9 +/- 30.4) was not significantly different from that of the conservative group (28.3 +/- 42.2), but was significantly improved in the early surgery group (52.9 +/- 34.2) compared with the late surgery group (p < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Early decompressive craniectomy with duroplasty before the onset of brain herniation should be performed to achieve satisfactory functional recovery if the infarct volume of the hemispheric cerebral infarction is more than 200 cm(3) and computed tomography on the second day after the ictus shows mass effect.



    Èëè âîò ãåðìàíñêèé îïûò (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abs tract&list_uids=14742603). Âïå÷àòëÿåò – 188 ïàöèåíòîâ! Ñðåäè áîëüíûõ äî 50 ëåò êîëè÷åñòâî âûæèâøèõ ñ ïðèëè÷íûì ôóíêöèîíàëüíûì èñõîäîì ÷åðåç 6 ìåñ ïî÷òè 35%. Èëè âîò ïðîøëîãîäíèé ñèñòåìàòè÷åñêèé îáçîð (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abs tract&list_uids=14707232): ñìåðòíîñòü + òÿæåëàÿ èíâàëèäíîñòü ñðåäè «ìîëîäûõ» - 32% (Êàê îöåíèâàëèëè disability – ïî àáñòðàêòó íå ïîíÿòíî).

    Âñå ýòî, êîíå÷íî, òîëüêî îïûò è ñîâñåì íå ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûé, íî… Íåñêîëüêî âîïðîñîâ ïîêîÿ íå äàþò. Ïîñëå òàêèõ äàííûõ ýòè÷íî ëè âêëþ÷àòü áîëüíûõ äî 50 ëåò â ÐÊÈ? Äàæå, åñëè ôóíêöèîíàëüíûé èñõîä íå óëó÷øàåòñÿ (÷òî, IMHO, ìàëî âåðîÿòíî – äðóãîå äåëî, ÷òî íåò êîððåëÿöèè ñ âûæèâàåìîñòüþ) ïðè ñíèæåíèè ñìåðòíîñòè â 2 – 3 ðàçà (à â àáñîëþòíûõ öèôðàõ ïî÷òè íà 45%) èìååì ëè ìû ïðàâî îòêàçûâàòüñÿ ñåé÷àñ îò ýòîãî âìåøàòåëüñòâà? Ñðàâíèòå ñ ÈÂË ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ òÿæåëûì èíñóëüòîì – íà âûæèâàåìîñòü è ôóíêöèîíàëüíûé èñõîä âëèÿíèÿ íåò, ÷òî æå – ýòèõ áîëüíûõ íå èíòóáèðîâàòü è íå âåíòèëèðîâàòü?



    ïî îïûòó ðåçóëüòàòîâ äî ñèõ ïî ïðîâåäåííûõ ÐÊÈ â õèðóðãèè è íåéðîõèðóðãèè â ÷àñòíîñòè - ìíå êàæåòñÿ ÷òî â îòëè÷èè îò òåðàïèè (êàðäèîëîãèè, íåâðîëîãèè è ò.ä. è ò.ï.) - ÐÊÈ â õèðóðãèè ïîêà âûãëÿäÿò "òóïèêîâîé âåòâüþ ýâîëþöèè", ò.í. "ðåçóëüòàòû" îáû÷íî: âî-ïåðâûõ íå äàþò îêîí÷àòåëüíîãî îòâåòà; âî-âòîðûõ î÷åíü âëèÿåò âàðèàáåëüíîñòü õèðóðãîâ (âñïîìíèì õîòÿáû CEA trials, ãäå ñðåäè âûâîäîâ äîìèíèðîâàëî ðàçäåëåíèå õèðóðãîâ ïî îñëîæíåíèÿì è ò.ä.); â òðåòüèõ - õèðóðãèÿ âñå-òàêè ýòî "ýêñêëþçèâ" è "èíäïîøèâ" â âûñîêîì ïîíèìàíèè ýòîãî ñëîâà Íå ñóäèòå ñòðîãî, ÿ íå õèðóðã, íî íàñêîëüêî ñëîæíà òåõíè÷åñêè ãåìèêðàíèýêòîìèÿ, ÷òî áû íå áûòü âîñïðîèçâîäèìîé áîëåå èëè ìåíåå îäèíàêîâî äëÿ ïðîâåäåíèÿ ÐÊÈ? Íåóæåëè êîðîíàðíîå øóíòèðîâàíèå ìåíåå ñëîæíîå âìåøàòåëüñòâî?

    Ñ óâàæåíèåì.

  4. Èðèíà Òèùåíêî
    #4
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
     òîì-òî è äåëî, ÷òî "ó îäíèõ ðàñòåò" è äðóãèõ íåò è ... â èòîãå áîëüøèíñòâà èññëåäîâàíèé ïîëó÷àåì:

    Results of surgical treatment in patients <50 years of age undergoing decompressive craniectomy are encouraging. The effectiveness of decompressive craniectomy for patients >50 years remains questionable and should be analysed in the framework of a prospective randomised study.



    À ïîñëå ïðîâåäåíèÿ îíûõ PRS - âûâîä îáû÷íî çâó÷èò êàê âûâîäû èç ISUIA (1998) Data on treatment-related morbidity and mortality rates according to aneurysmal size and location and specific symptoms are required

    to determine whether surgical or endovascular intervention may be warranted in various subgroups of patients with unruptured intracranial aneurysms,

    including those with acutely symptomatic unruptured aneurysms.



     îáùåì - ïîêà ýòî â õèðóðãèè "íå î÷åíü ïîëó÷àåòñÿ".



    Ïî ïîâîäó Âàøè âîïðîñîâ:

    1) ÈÂË è õèðóðãèÿ âñå-òàêè ðàçíûå ìåòîäû (ïîêà ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå èñòîðè÷åñêè ýòî òàê ñëîæèëîñü ) Êðîìå òîãî - âåäü ìû ðåàíèìèðóåì ñíà÷àëà, à ïîòîì ðàçáèðàåìñÿ "îò ÷åãî ðåàíèìèðîâàëè", à åñëè ðàçáèðàòüñÿ ñ íà÷àëà (äî âûïîëíåíèÿ âñåì èçâåñòíûõ ABC), òî ó íàñ ëåòàëüíîñòü îò ïîïåðõèâàíèÿ êîñòî÷êîé ñòàíåò 100%;



    2) Ýòè÷íî/íåýòè÷íî - íå çíàþ (íå ýêñïåðò). Ìîÿ ò.ç. - ëó÷øå ñïðîñèòü "÷åãî õîòÿò ðîäñòâåííèêè" - åñëè õîòÿò "survival" ëþáîé öåíîé - íåò ïðîáëåì, ìîæíî è ãåìèêðàíèýêòîìèþ, åñëè õîòÿò "functional outcome - ò.å. GOS 4/5" - ýòî ñîâñåì äðóãîé ðàçãîâîð. È êñòàòè, êàê ðàç íà ýòè âîïðîñû ÐÊÈ íå äàäóò îäíîçíà÷íîãî îòâåòà èìåííî äëÿ ýòîãî ïàöèåíòà...



    3) Ïî ïîâîäó îïåðàöèè - îíà ïðèìèòèâíàÿ ñ ò.ç. íåéðîõèðóðãèè, íî îòíîñèòåëüíî òðàâìàòè÷íàÿ (áîëüøîé ðàçðåç è äèññåêöèÿ áîëüøîé ïëîùàäè òêàíåé) äëÿ êðèòè÷åñêè áîëüíîãî ïàöèåíòà (ïîýòîìó, äóìàþ ÷òî âî âñåõ íåðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ èìååòñÿ îãðîìíûé selection bias ïî "îáùåìó ñàìî÷óâñòâèþ ïàöèåíòà". ÀÊØ ñ ýòîé ò.ç. îäíîçíà÷íî áîëåå ñëîæíàÿ è âûñîêîòåõíîëîãè÷íàÿ îïåðàöèÿ. Ïðî èíäïîøèâ ÿ ïèñàë íå èìåííî äëÿ ýòîé ñèòóàöèè, à âîîáùå ïðî õèðóðãèþ



    Ìîå ìíåíèå - ïðîðûâ â èíñóëüòàõ íàäî èñêàòü â ïðîôèëàêòèêå, êîððåêöèè ïåðâîïðè÷èí, áûñòðîé äèàãíîñòèêå è ýôôåêòèâíûõ ìåòîäàõ ýêñòðåííîé ðåïåðôóçèè èøèìèçèðîâàííûõ òåððèòîðèé. Ñèëüíî ñîìíåâàþñü ÷òî ïðè ìàññèâíîì èíñóëüòå ïî MCA ìîæíî âîîáùå âåñòè ðå÷ü î "ôóíêöèîíàëüíîé âûæèâàåìîñòè" åñëè ïîäõîäèòü ê ïîíÿòèþ ôóíêöèÿ ñ îáûâàòåëüñêîé ò.ç.. Èíòåðåñíûì âûãëÿäèò âûâîä èç íåìåöêîé ðàáîòû, ññûëêó íà êîòîðóþ Âû ïðåäîñòàâèëè (ýòî ãäå 188 áîëüíûõ):

    The side of the infarct did not have prognostic relevance

    Êàêóþ æå ôóíêöèþ îíè òîãäà ìåðÿëè ???

  5. Ïñèõ
    #5
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    ÈÂË è õèðóðãèÿ âñå-òàêè ðàçíûå ìåòîäû (ïîêà ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå èñòîðè÷åñêè ýòî òàê ñëîæèëîñü ) Êðîìå òîãî - âåäü ìû ðåàíèìèðóåì ñíà÷àëà, à ïîòîì ðàçáèðàåìñÿ "îò ÷åãî ðåàíèìèðîâàëè", à åñëè ðàçáèðàòüñÿ ñ íà÷àëà (äî âûïîëíåíèÿ âñåì èçâåñòíûõ ABC), òî ó íàñ ëåòàëüíîñòü îò ïîïåðõèâàíèÿ êîñòî÷êîé ñòàíåò 100%

    Ïðèìåð ñ ÈÂË, êîíå÷íî, íå ïðÿìàÿ àíàëîãèÿ, íî èíòóáèðîâàòü ýòèõ áîëüíûõ ïðèõîäèòñÿ ê êîíöó ïåðâûõ ñóòîê...

    Ìîÿ ò.ç. - ëó÷øå ñïðîñèòü "÷åãî õîòÿò ðîäñòâåííèêè" - åñëè õîòÿò "survival" ëþáîé öåíîé - íåò ïðîáëåì, ìîæíî è ãåìèêðàíèýêòîìèþ, åñëè õîòÿò "functional outcome - ò.å. GOS 4/5" - ýòî ñîâñåì äðóãîé ðàçãîâîð. ×åãî õîòÿò ðîäñòâåííèêè áîëüíîãî 45 ëåò? È êàêîé áóäåò «ôóíêöèîíàëüíûé èñõîä» ÷åðåç 3 – 5 ëåò – êòî çíàåò? Ïî ïîâîäó îïåðàöèè - îíà ïðèìèòèâíàÿ ñ ò.ç. íåéðîõèðóðãèè, íî îòíîñèòåëüíî òðàâìàòè÷íàÿ (áîëüøîé ðàçðåç è äèññåêöèÿ áîëüøîé ïëîùàäè òêàíåé… Çíà÷èò, åñòü øàíñ, ÷òî ðåçóëüòàòû ÐÊÈ áóäóò ðåàëüíî ïðèìåíèìû?

    Ìîå ìíåíèå - ïðîðûâ â èíñóëüòàõ íàäî èñêàòü â ïðîôèëàêòèêå, êîððåêöèè ïåðâîïðè÷èí, áûñòðîé äèàãíîñòèêå è ýôôåêòèâíûõ ìåòîäàõ ýêñòðåííîé ðåïåðôóçèè èøèìèçèðîâàííûõ òåððèòîðèé. Êîíå÷íî, õîðîøî áûòü áîãàòûì è çäîðîâûì, íî… Êñòàòè, òðîìáîëèçèñ ó ýòèõ áîëüíûõ, ïðîâîäÿò íåîõîòíî.

    Èíòåðåñíûì âûãëÿäèò âûâîä èç íåìåöêîé ðàáîòû, ññûëêó íà êîòîðóþ Âû ïðåäîñòàâèëè (ýòî ãäå 188 áîëüíûõ):

    Öèòàòà: The side of the infarct did not have prognostic relevance

    Êàêóþ æå ôóíêöèþ îíè òîãäà ìåðÿëè??? Ìîæåò, ïðîñòî áîëüíûõ ñ èíôàðêòîì íåäîìèíàíòíîãî ïîëóøàðèÿ ÷àùå îïåðèðîâàëè, à ñ äîìèíàíòíûì îòáèðàëè "ñàìûõ ñàìûõ"?. Íàñêîëüêî âîîáùå èñõîä ïðè èíñóëüòå çàâèñèò îò "ïðàâî – ëåâî" ëîêàëèçàöèè?

    Ñ óâàæåíèåì.

Êëèíèêà ñòîìàòîëîãèè è êîñìåòîëîãèè â Ìîñêâå

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