Çàðåãèñòðèðîâàòüñÿ

Ïîõîæèå òåìû

  1. Áåòàñåðê?
    îò echo1973 â ðàçäåëå Íåâðîëîã è íåéðîõèðóðã
    Îòâåòîâ: 15
    : 24.09.2004, 06:59
  2. Îòâåòîâ: 1
    : 29.08.2004, 04:00

Òåìà: Áåòàñåðê?

  1. echo1973
    #1
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Óâàæàåìûå íåâðîïàòîëîãè,



    Èíòåðåñíî óñëûøàòü Âàøå ìíåíèå ïî ïîâîäó ñëåäóþùåé èíôîðìàöèè. Äî 1968 ãîäà ëåêàðñòâî ïîä íàçâàíèåì "Ñåðê" ïðîèçâîäèëîñü â ÑØÀ ôàðìàöåâòè÷åñêîé êîìïàíèåé "Óíèìåä êîðï." è øèðîêî ïðèìåíÿëîñü àìåðèêàíñêèìè âðà÷àìè äëÿ ëå÷åíèÿ âåðòèãî ðàçëè÷íîãî ãåíåçà. Õèìè÷åñêàÿ ôîðìóëà ïðåïàðàòà "Ñåðê" - 2-[2-(Ìåòèëàìèíî)ýòèë]ïèðèäèí äèãèäðîõëîðèä, ò.å. ýòî åñòü íè÷òî èíîå, êàê "Áåòàãèñòèí" èëè "Áåòàñåðê". Îäíàêî â 1968 ãîäó FDA óäàëèëî äàííîå ëåêàðñòâî ñ àìåðèêàíñêîãî ìåäèöèíñêîãî ðûíêà èç-çà îòñóòñòâèÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ åãî ýôôåêòèâíîñòè. Êðîìå òîãî â ãëàâíîé ðàáîòå ïî äàííîìó ïðåïàðàòó áûëè îáíàðóæåíû ñåðü¸çíûå íåäîñòàòàòêè, êîòîðûå ïðèâåëè ê ëîæíîé èíòåðïðåòàöèè ðåçóëüòàòîâ. Ïðîèçâîäèòåëü ïîäàë íà FDA èñê è ïðîõîäèë äëèòåëüíûé ñóäåáíûé ïðîöåññ ñ ïîëíûì ðàçáîðîì âñåõ çà è ïðîòèâ, è âîâëå÷åíèåì ìåäèöèíñêèõ ñâåòèë. Ðåçóëüòàò - â 1972 ãîäó ñóä îòêàçàë èñòöó è ìàðêåòèíã äàííîãî ïðåïàðàòà íà òåððèòîðèè ÑØÀ ñ òåõ ïîð íå ïðîâîäèëñÿ. "Ñåðê" ïðîäîëæàë ïðèìåíÿòüñÿ èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî â Åâðîïå è ïî äàííîìó ïðåïàðàòó áûëî îïóáëèêîâàíî íåìàëî ðàáîò. Ñîãëàñíî "Cochranå Database", â êîòîðîé ìîæíî íàéòè òðàéëû ïî äàííîìó ïðåïàðàòó, ïîëîæèòåëüíûé ýôôåêò åñëè è áûë îïèñàí â íåêîòîðûõ ðàáîòàõ, òî âîñïðîèçâåñòè åãî â ïîñëåäóþùèõ íå óäàâàëîñü. Òî åñòü âûâîä îäèí - ýôôåêòèâíîñòü íå äîêàçàíà. Îòñþäà âîïðîñ: âëàäåÿ äàííîé èíôîðìàöèåé ìîæíî ëè ïîâåðèòü, ÷òî äàííûé ïðåïàðàò òâîðèò ÷óäåñà â Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèè?



    Äðóãàÿ èñòîðèÿ ñ ýòèì ïðåïàðàòîì íà÷àëàñü â 1998 ñ ïóáëèêàöèè â æóðíàëå Archves otolaringology, head and neck surgery. Ðàáîòà áûëà îïëà÷åíà ôèðìîé ïðîèçâîäÿùåé ãîìåîïàòè÷åñêèå ñðåäñòâà. Âîò ýòà ðàáîòà:



    Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.

    Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.

    Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg. 1998 Aug;124(8):879-85.



    Ãîìåîïàòè÷åñêèé ïðåïàðàò Âåðòèãîõåë ñðàâíèâàëñÿ ñ îáùåïðèíÿòûì ëå÷åíèåì. ×òî æå ïîíèìàëîñü ïîä îáùåïðèíÿòûì ëå÷åíèåì â ýòîé ñòàòüå? Îêàçûâàåòñÿ, âñå òîò æå Áåòàñåðê - ëåêàðñòâî ñ íåäîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòüþ.

    Äàííîå èññëåäîâàíèå, ñ ïåðâîãî âçãëÿäà ïðîâåä¸ííîå ïî âñåì êàíîíàì äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíû ïîñòóëèðîâàëî, ÷òî ãîìåîïàòè÷åñêèé ïðåïàðàò âåðòèãîõåë (Vertigoheel) íè â ÷¸ì íå óñòóïàåò áåòàñåðêó. Âïåðâûå ìàòåðèàë ïî ãîìåîïàòè÷åñêîìó ïðåïàðàòó áûë îïóáëèêàâàí â ìåäèöèíñêîì æóðíàëå, íàïðÿìóþ ñâÿçàííûì ñ American Medical Association (AMA). Ãîìåîïàòû ïðàçäíîâàëè ïîáåäó, ñòàòüÿ âûçâàëà øèðîêèé îáùåñòâåííûé ðåçîíàíñ. Äî ñèõ ïîð äëÿ ìíîãèõ îñòà¸òñÿ çàãàäêîé, êàêèì îáðàçîì ñòàòüÿ ïðîøëà ðåöåíçèðîâàíèå èìåííî â àìåðèêàíñêîì æóðíàëå, âåäü áåòàñåðê âîîáùå îòñóòñòâóåò íà ìåäèöèícêîì ðûíêå Àìåðèêè. È ñðàâíèâàòü òî íàäî áûëî ñ ïëàöåáî. ×åãî íå áûëî ñäåëàíî. Çàòåì ðåäàêòîð êîíå÷íî èçâèíèëñÿ ïåðåä ÷èòàòåëÿìè çà ïóáëèêàöèþ î÷åíü ñïîðíîãî ìàòåðèàëà, íî ýìîöèè íå óòèõàþò äî ñèõ ïîð. Ãîìåîïàòû ïîâñåìåñòíî öèòèðóþò äàííûé òðóä â ðåêëàìíûõ öåëÿõ.

    Îñîáî ïðèíöèïèàëüíûå âðà÷è õîòÿò íåïðåìåííî îòîçâàòü ñòàòüþ èç æóðíàëà è íàëîæèòü íà èññëåäîâàòåëåé äèñöèïëèíàðíîå âçûñêàíèå çà çàâåäîìóþ ôàëüñèôèêàöèþ.

    Ñàìîå èíòåðåñíîå, ÷òî â ðåçóëüòàòå ïóáëèêàöèè ýòîé ñòàòüè ïîÿâèëèñü âðà÷è , èñïîëüçóþùèå ÎÁÀ ïðåïàðàòà (áåòàñåðê è âåðòèãîõåë) â ñâîåé ïðàêòèêå.



    Ñ óâàæåíèåì,



    Å.Å. Ñòóäåíöîâ

  2. Alex T
    #2
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Î÷åíü èíòåðåñíûé âîïðîñ çàäàí óâ. Å.Å. Ñòóäåíöîâûì: ïî÷åìó â áîëåå, ÷åì 70 ñòðàí ìèðà, â òîì ÷èñëå ñîñåäíåé Êàíàäå, ïðåïàðàò äàâíî ðàçðåøåí è èñïîëüçóåòñÿ, à FDA åãî èãíîðèðóåò. Åñëè ñóäèòü ïî ñëåïûì ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûì, òî ìîæíî îáíàðóæèòü íè îäèí äåñÿòîê òàêèõ èñïûòàíèé, ãäå ó èññëåäîâàòåëåé îí âûçâàë òåïëûå ÷óâñòâà. È â ýòîì ãîäó áåç íèõ íå îáîøëîñü:



    Eur Arch Otorhinolaryngol. 2003 Feb;260(2):73-7. Epub 2002 Sep 11.

    Betahistine dihydrochloride in the treatment of peripheral vestibular vertigo.



    Mira E, Guidetti G, Ghilardi L, Fattori B, Malannino N, Maiolino L, Mora R, Ottoboni S, Pagnini P, Leprini M, Pallestrini E, Passali D, Nuti D, Russolo M, Tirelli G, Simoncelli C, Brizi S, Vicini C, Frasconi P.



    Department of Otorhinolaryngology, University of Pavia, I.R.C.C.S. Policlinico S. Matteo, Pavia, Italy. e.mira@smatteo.pv.it



    The present study compares the efficacy and safety of betahistine dihydrochloride to that of a placebo in recurrent vertigo resulting from Meniere's disease (MD) or in paroxysmal positional vertigo (PPV) of probable vascular origin. The design was double-blind, multicentre and parallel-group randomised. Eleven Italian centres enrolled 144 patients: 75 of the patients were treated with betahistine (41 MD/34 PPV) and 69 with placebos (40 MD/29 PPV). The betahistine dosage was 16 mg twice per day for 3 months. Compared to the placebo, betahistine had a significant effect on the frequency, intensity and duration of vertigo attacks. Associated symptoms and the quality of life also were significantly improved by betahistine. Both the physician's judgement and the patient's opinion on the efficacy and acceptability of the treatment were in agreement as to the superiority of betahistine. The effective and safe profile of betahistine in the treatment of vertigo due to peripheral vestibular disorders was confirmed.



    Publication Types:

     Clinical Trial

     Multicenter Study

     Randomized Controlled Trial



    PMID: 12582782 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    Acta Otolaryngol. 2003 Jun;123(5):588-93.

    Double-blind, randomized, multicenter study comparing the effect of betahistine and flunarizine on the dizziness handicap in patients with recurrent vestibular vertigo.



    Albera R, Ciuffolotti R, Di Cicco M, De Benedittis G, Grazioli I, Melzi G, Mira E, Pallestrini E, Passali D, Serra A, Vicini C.



    Second Department of Otorhinolaryngology, San Giovanni Battista Hospital, University of Turin, Turin, Italy.



    OBJECTIVE: The aim of this double-blind, randomized, multicenter study was to compare the efficacy of betahistine dihydrochloride (BH) and flunarizine (FL) using the Dizziness Handicap Inventory (DHI), a validated self-assessment questionnaire that has not previously been used in a clinical trial to evaluate antivertigo drugs. MATERIAL AND METHODS: Patients with recurrent vertigo of peripheral vestibular origin and who were severely handicapped by vertigo were randomized to an 8-week course of treatment with oral BH 48 mg daily or oral FL 10 mg daily. The efficacy endpoints were the total DHI score and the physical, functional and emotional subscores. RESULTS: Fifty-two patients completed the study. After 8 weeks of treatment the mean total DHI score and the physical subscore were significantly lower in the BH group compared to the FL group (7.5 and 3.6 points, respectively). The mean total DHI score as well as the three subscores decreased significantly after 4 and 8 weeks in both treatment groups. CONCLUSION: This study showed that at 8 weeks BH is significantly more effective than FL in terms of improving the total DHI score and the physical subscore. It was also established that the DHI is a useful and reliable method for evaluating the efficacy of antivertigo drugs.



    Publication Types:

     Clinical Trial

     Multicenter Study

     Randomized Controlled Trial

     PMID: 12875580 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    Íàêîíåö òî è ÿ ïðîÿñíèë: äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ñíÿòü ñ ïðåïàðàòà ÿðëûê «íå äîêàçàííîñòè» íèêàêèõ èñïûòàíèé íåäîñòàòî÷íî, ãëàâíîå áëàãîñêëîííîñòü FDA.

    À âåäü êàçàëîñü áû äâîéíûå-ñëåïûå – ñâÿùåííàÿ êîðîâà, èãíîðèðîâàòü êîòîðóþ äàæå òàêîé ìîùíîé îðãàíèçàöèè âîçáðàíÿåòñÿ.





    ×òî êàñàåòñÿ âûøå óïîìÿíóòîé ðàáîòû:



    ÑÐÀÂÍÈÒÅËÜÍÎÅ ÈÑÑËÅÄÎÂÀÍÈÅ ÏÐÅÏÀÐÀÒÀ ÂÅÐÒÈÃÎÕÅËÜ È ÁÅÒÀÃÈÑÒÈÍÀ ÏÐÈ ÃÎËÎÂÎÊÐÓÆÅÍÈÈ

    Âàéçåð Ì., Øòðåññåð Â., Êëÿéí Ï.

    Öåëü: Èññëåäîâàíèå êëèíè÷åñêîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòè Âåðòèãîõåëü ïðè ãîëîâîêðóæåíèÿõ ðàçëè÷íîãî ïðîèñõîæäåíèÿ.

    Äèçàéí: Ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííîå, äâîéíîå ñëåïîå èññëåäîâàíèå â ñðàâíåíèè ñ àëëîïàòè÷åñêèì ïðåïàðàòîì, ïðîâîäèâøååñÿ â òå÷åíèå 6 íåäåëü.

    Ïàöèåíòû è ìåòîäû: 119 ïàöèåíòîâ ñ ãîëîâîêðóæåíèåì ðàçëè÷íîãî ãåíåçà, ñòàòèñòè÷åñêàÿ îöåíêà äàííûõ ïðîâåäåíà â 105 ñëó÷àÿõ. Ïðîâîäèëèñü èçìåðåíèÿ ÷àñòîòû, ñèëû è äëèòåëüíîñòè ïðèñòóïîâ ãîëîâîêðóæåíèÿ (òåñòû ïî Wei-Lachin, Mann-Whitney). Ïàöèåíòû ïîëó÷àëè Âåðòèãîõåëü (3 ðàçà â äåíü ïî 15 êàïåëü) èëè áåòàãèñòèí (18 ìã 3 ðàçà â äåíü) â óñëîâèÿõ äâîéíîãî ñëåïîãî èññëåäîâàíèÿ.

    Ðåçóëüòàòû: Îáå ãðóïïû ïîêàçàëè ñòàòèñòè÷åñêè äîñòîâåðíîå è êëèíè÷åñêè ïîäòâåðæäåííîå ñíèæåíèå ÷àñòîòû, ñèëû è äëèòåëüíîñòè ïðèñòóïîâ ãîëîâîêðóæåíèÿ. Ïåðåíîñèìîñòü èññëåäîâàííûõ ïðåïàðàòîâ áûëà õîðîøåé.

    Ðåçþìå: Èññëåäîâàíèå äîñòîâåðíî äîêàçûâàåò, ÷òî óæå â òå÷åíèå äëèòåëüíîãî âðåìåíè èñïîëüçóåìûé â ïðàêòèêå ãîìåîïàòè÷åñêèé ïðåïàðàò Âåðòèãîõåëü îáëàäàåò âûðàæåííûì òåðàïåâòè÷åñêèì ýôôåêòîì ïðè ãîëîâîêðóæåíèÿõ, ðàâíûì ýôôåêòó îò ïðèìåíåíèÿ áåòàãèñòèíà - îäíîãî èç íàèáîëåå ýôôåêòèâíûõ è çàðåêîìåíäîâàâøèõ ñåáÿ àëëîïàòè÷åñêèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ ïðè äàííîé ïàòîëîãèè.

    Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P. Homeopathic vs Conventional Treatment of Vertigo - A Randomized Doubleblind Clinical Study. Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg 1998; 124: 879-885



    Òàê â íåé æå, êàê-áóäòî, îáà ïðåïàðàòà ñåáÿ íåïëîõî ïðîÿâèëè.



    È, íàêîíåö, ïîñëåäíåå.  âûøå óïîìÿíóòîì ñóäåáíîì ïðîöåññå þðèñòû ôèðìû îáâèíÿëè ýêñïåðòîâ FDA, èíèöèèðîâàâøèõ çàïðåùåíèå "Serc", â íå î÷åíü áëàãîâèäíûõ äâèæóþùèõ ïðè÷èíàõ. Íî òàê êàê äîêàçàòü íå ñìîãëè, ïîâòîðÿòü èõ íå áóäó.

  3. upi
    #3
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Åäèíñòâåííîå, ê ÷åìó õîòåë áû ïðèâëå÷ü âíèìàíèå, òàê ýòî ê òîìó, ÷òî äîçû áåòàñåðêà âåçäå áûëè èñïîëüçîâàíû ðàçíûå: â "êëàññè÷åñêî-ãîìåîïàòè÷åñêîì òðàéëå" 18 ìã/äåíü ðàçäåëåííûå íà 3 ïðèåìà [îðèã.: (betahistine dosage: 18 mg/d in 3 divided doses)](à íå êàê â ðóññêîì ïåðåâîäå 18 ìã 3 ðàçà â äåíü), â ôåâðàëüñêîé 32 ìã/â äåíü, â èþíüñêîé - 48 ìã. Êñòàòè 15 ëåò íàçàä â òîì æå æóðíàëå 24 ìã áåòàñåðêà áûëè ìåíåå ýôôåêòèâíû ÷åì 10 ìã ôëóíàðèçèíà.



    Acta Otolaryngol Suppl. 1988;460:143-8.

    Flunarizine and betahistine. Two different therapeutic approaches in vertigo compared in a double-blind study.



    Elbaz P.



    Fondation Rothschild, Paris, France.



    One hundred and seventeen adult patients suffering from vestibular vertigo were treated in a multicentre double-blind study with flunarizine (10 mg before sleeping) or betahistine dichlorhydrate (8 mg 3 times daily). The study took 2 months. The results revealed that flunarizine is significantly more active against attacks of vertigo and associated symptoms (mainly neurovegetative disorders, anxiety and headaches). The global superiority of flunarizine was confirmed by both the evaluation by the investigators and the patient. Significantly fewer patients treated with flunarizine reported side effects or interrupted the trial therapy prematurely. This study confirms the value of the calcium antagonist flunarizine in the treatment of vestibular vertigo.



    Íå áóäó âíèêàòü êàê è êàêîå ãîëîâîêðóæåíèå îöåíèâàåòñÿ, íî íóæíû òàêæå èññëåäîâàíèÿ, êîòîðûå îòâåòÿò êàêàÿ æå âñå-òàêè äîçà ñåðêà îïòèìàëüíàÿ è íàñêîëüêî îíà ëó÷øå, ÷åì ïëàöåáî.

  4. Minin
    #4
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Ñóäÿ ïî èíôîðìàöèè ôèðìû ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿ â ýòî æå âðåìÿ (êîíåö 80ã) áûëè ïðîâåäåíû öåëûé ðÿä ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûõ äâîéíûõ ñëåïûõ ïëàöåáî êîíòðîëèðîâàííûé èññëåäîâàíèé

    (Legent F. et al., 1988; Oosterveld W.J. et al., 1989; Fischer A.J.E.M., van Elferen L.W.M,, 1985; Conraux Ñ., Cellier D 1988), ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàâøèõ, êàê è âûøå ïðèâåäåííûå ðàáîòû, «çíà÷èòåëüíîå ïðåâîñõîäñòâî áåòàãèñòèíà ïåðåä ïëàöåáî».

    Ïî÷åìó â äðóãèõ «äâîéíûõ – ñëåïûõ» ðåçóëüòàòû çíà÷èòåëüíî áîëåå ñêðîìíûå? Òàê ýòî æ óæå ìíîãî ðàç ìóññèðîâàëîñü íà ôîðóìå: êòî ïëàòèò äåíüãè (ïðè÷åì î÷åíü áîëüøèå äåíüãè), òîò è …..

    Ïîäîáíûå àíàëîãè÷íûå ñîïîñòàâëåíèÿ èññëåäîâàíèé ïî ðÿäó äðóãèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ âûçûâàëè ñèëüíîå ðàçäðàæåíèå ó íåêîòîðûõ ó÷àñòíèêîâ ôîðóìà: «ïðåäïîëàãàòü, ÷òî â öèâèëèçîâàííîì ìèðå è òàêîå áûòü ìîæåò - ñóùèé ïàðàíîèê (À.Â. Æ.) ×åìó òîãäà âåðèòü, åñëè íå òàêèì èñïûòàíèÿì».

    Òàêîé äèëåòàíò, êàê ÿ, äëÿ ïîäòâåðæäåíèÿ, ïîñòàðàëñÿ áû óòî÷íèòü äèíàìèêó èçìåíåíèé, ïðè ïðèåìå ïðåïàðàòà, ñóððîãàòíûõ ïîêàçàòåëåé (ê ïðèìåðó, ìîçãîâîãî êðîâîòîêà) ó êàæäîãî áîëüíîãî, è êàê ýòè èçìåíåíèÿ ñèíõðîíèçèðîâàëèñü ñ íàáëþäàåìûì êëèíè÷åñêèì ýôôåêòîì.

    Íî ìíå òóò óæå íåñêîëüêî ðàç ïîïóëÿðíî îáúÿñíÿëè, ÷òî ïîñëå ïîÿâëåíèÿ ÍÀÓ×ÍÎÉ ìåäèöèíû, à èìåííî óñðåäíåííûõ ïî âñåì áîëüíûì ñòàòèñòè÷åñêèõ ïðîöåíòîâ, òàêîé àðõàèçì èçëèøåí.

    Ìîæíî ëè èñõîäÿ èç ñòàòèñòèêè îïðåäåëèòü îïòèìàëüíûå äîçû? Ñ áîëüøèìè íàòÿæêàìè: âñå ìû, âêëþ÷àÿ îäíîòèïíûõ áîëüíûõ, íåîäèíàêîâûå, âïîëíå âåðîÿòíî, ÷òî îïòèìàëüíûå äîçèðîâêè òîãî æå áåòàãèñòèíà äëÿ ðàçíûõ áîëüíûõ ñóùåñòâåííî ðàçëè÷àþòñÿ. Òàê ÷òî ñòàòèñòèêà, â ëó÷øåì ñëó÷àå, ìîæåò ëèøü îïðåäåëèòü âåðîÿòíîñòü, ÷òî òà èëè èíàÿ äîçà äëÿ êîíêðåòíîãî áîëüíîãî îêàæåòñÿ ñàìîå òî.

  5. Èðàèäà
    #5
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Äîðîãîé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷ !

    Ñèñòåìíîå ãîëîâîêðóæåíèå - ðåçóëüòàò ïîâðåæäåíèÿ èëè íàðóøåíèÿ ôóíêöèè âíóòðåííåãî óõà , Ó!!! íåðâà èëè âåñòèáóëÿðíûõ ÿäåð è ñâÿçàííûõ ñ íèìè ïóòåé â ñòâîëå ìîçãà è ìîçæå÷êå .

    Ìîæíî , êîíå÷íî , èçó÷àÿ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü áåòàñåðêà ñìîòðåòü ìîçãîâîé êðîâîòîê ó ýòèõ áîëüíûõ ,è äàæå áóäåò î÷åíü íàó÷íî - íî ïðåäñòàâüòå êîíôóç - êðîâîòîê áëåñê , à âñòàòü áîëüíîé íå ìîæåò....

    Èìåííî ïîýòîìó èññëåäîâàíèÿ áûâàþò ðàçíûå , î ÷åì ÂÀÌ , òîâàðèù íàäçèðàþùèé çà ìåäèöèíîé , âðà÷èøêè óæå íåîäíîêðàòíî äîêëàäûâàëè .

    Åñòü èññëåäîâàíèÿ , èçó÷àþùèå ñóððîãàòíûå ïîêàçàòåëè , åñòü - èçó÷àþùèå êîíå÷íûå òî÷êè - êëèíè÷åñêèå èñõîäû , êîãäà äîêàçàíî , ÷òî ñóððîãàòíûå òî÷êè ïîçâîëÿþò ïðîãíîçèðîâàòü êîíå÷íûå èñõîäû , îáõîäÿòñÿ òîëüêî ñóððîãàòíûìè òî÷êàìè .. Ñëîâîì - ñì. íà÷àëî äèñêóññèé.

    Èíîãäà åñòü ïðîáëåìû ñ îãðàíè÷åíèåì êðóãà âêëþ÷àåìûõ áîëüíûõ .

    Ê ñèíäðîìó "ãîëîâîêðóæåíèå "ýòî áîëåå ÷åì îòíîñèòñÿ - ñèíäðîì ñàì ïî ñåáå î÷åíü íåîäíîðîäåí ( âïëîòü äî ñåìàíòè÷åñêèõ ïðîáëåì - òî , ÷òî áîëüíîé íàçûâàåò ãîëîâîêðóæåíèåì , ìîæåò îòíþäü ïîñëåäíèì íå ÿâëÿòüñÿ ) .

    Íà îáñóæäåíèå ÍÅ âûíîñèëèñü ÂÑÅ ðàáîòû ïî áåòàñåðêó - îáñóæäàåòñÿ êîíêðåòíàÿ ïðîáëåìà - ðåçóëüòàòû êëèíè÷åñêèõ èññëåäîâàíèé , ïîñòðîåííûõ ïî îïðåäåëåííîìó äèçàéíó. Îáñóæäàþòñÿ íåäîñòàòêè äèçàéíà , ñâÿçàííûå ñ ýòèì ïðîáëåìû ñ ïðåïàðàòîì , è ïîä÷åðêèâàåòñÿ , ÷òî íà íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ ïðåïàðàò ÍÅ ìîæåò èñïîëüçîâàòüñÿ â êà÷åñòâå ñòàíäàðòà ýôôåêòèâíîé òåðàïèè â ñðàâíèòåëüíûõ èññëåäîâàâàíèÿõ - â ðàìêàõ çäðàâîé ëîãèêè , â ÷åì ïðîáëåìà ?

  6. Anna6
    #6
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Óâàæàåìûé ïðîôåññîð Ìåëüíè÷åíêî,

    Ïîëíîñòüþ ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàøèì ñîîáùåíèåì çà èñêëþ÷åíèåì îäíîé íåáîëüøîé äåòàëè. Ïîðàæåíèÿ ìîçæå÷êà äàþò ïðàêòè÷åñêè âñåãäà íåñèñòåìíîå ãîëîâîêðóæåíèå. Ñèñòåìíîå ãîëîâîêðóæåíèå îáóñëîâëåíî íàðóøåíèåì ôóíêöèé ïåðèô. âåñòèáóëÿðíîãî àíàëèçàòîðà äî óðîâíÿ ÿäåð VIII ×Í âêëþ÷èòåëüíî. Òàêèì îáðàçîì, åñëè êòî-òî ïûòàåòñÿ òåñòèðîâàòü ïðåïàðàò íà îñíîâå áîëüíûõ ñ ñèñòåìíûì ãîëîâîêðóæåíèåì, òî îí èìååò äåëî ñ î÷åíü îãðàíè÷åííûì ïðîöåññîì, äàþùèì ýòîò ñèìïòîì, è èìåþùèì ñîâåðøåííî ðàçëè÷íóþ ýòèîëîãèþ. Âîçíèêàåò âîïðîñ: èìååò ëè ñìûñë ëå÷èòü ñèìïòîì, à íå áîëåçíü? Èëè åùå ëó÷øå: èìååò ëè ñìûñë ëå÷èòü îäèí è òîò æå ñèìïòîì ïðè âñåõ áîëåçíÿõ, èëè âñå-òàêè ïîïûòàòüñÿ êàê-òî óïîðÿäî÷èòü áîëüíûõ ïî íîçîëîãèè è âûÿñíèòü ýôôåêò ïðåïàðàòà â çàâèñèìîñòè îò ýòîãî?

  7. ñûí
    #7
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Óâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà!

    Íå ïîíÿë î êàêèõ, íà ýòîò ðàç, íåäîñòàòêàõ äèçàéíà double-blind, randomized, multicenter èññëåäîâàíèé Âû ãîâîðèòå?

    Êàêèå- ëèáî ïàòîôèçèîëîãè÷åñêèå àñïåêòû ãîëîâîêðóæåíèÿ (ê ïðèìåðó, ïðè áîëåçíè Ìåíüåðà), ïî-ìîåìó, â äèñêóññèè íå îáñóæäàëèñü. Íà ñ÷åò ñóððîãàòíûõ ïîêàçàòåëåé, ëèøü îòìåòèë, ÷òî íåïëîõî áû, ðàç ðàçëè÷íûå ïðàâèëüíûå ñòàòèñòè÷åñêèå èññëåäîâàíèÿ äðóã äðóãó ïðîòèâîðå÷àò, ïîñìîòðåòü êàêèå æå ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêèå èçìåíåíèÿ â îðãàíèçì, â îòëè÷èå îò òîãî æå ïëàöåáî, ó èçó÷àåìûõ áîëüíûõ âíîñèë ïðåïàðàò è êàê ýòî îòðàæàëîñü íà êëèíè÷åñêèõ ðåçóëüòàòàõ. Åñëè îòêèíóòü ïðÿìóþ ïîäòàñîâêó, ïîêàçàíèÿ ïðèáîðîâ «ïðèãëàäèòü» ñëîæíåå, ÷åì ñóáúåêòèâíîå ñàìî÷óâñòâèå.

    Êðîâîòîê ïðèâåë òîëüêî ðàäè ïðèìåðà, ïîòîìó ÷òî åãî ìîæíî ïîìåðèòü è óëó÷øåíèå êîòîðîãî äåêëàðèðóåò ðàçðàáîò÷èê ïðåïàðàòà.  ïëàíå ãîëîâîêðóæåíèÿ ñîñóäèñòîãî ãåíåçà ( ê ïðèìåðó, â òîé æå ñîñóäèñòîé ñåòè óëèòêè). Êàê ìîæíî îöåíèâàòü ðàçëè÷íûå ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêèå ïðîöåññû, ñâÿçàííûå ñ ãèñòàìèíîì, ÿ íå çíàþ, íî åñëè èõ ÷åòêî óäàëîñü áû ñâÿçàòü ñ «êëèíèêîé» áûëî áû ïðåêðàñíî. Òî æå ñàìîå ìîæíî ñêàçàòü è î äðóãèõ âîçìîæíûõ ìåõàíèçìàõ.

    Ïîëàãàþ, åñëè íà òàêèå èññëåäîâàíèÿ òðàòèëàñü õîòü íåáîëüøàÿ ÷àñòü èç ñîòåí ìèëëèîíîâ äîëëàðîâ, îòïóñêàåìûõ ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿìè íà ìíîãîöåíòðîâûå ñëåïûå ñòàòèñòè÷åñêèå èñïûòàíèÿ, ýïèòåò «íàó÷íàÿ» ê ìåäèöèíå áûë áû áîëåå ïðèìåíèì.

    P.S. Äà åù¸, Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà. Âñå ÷òî Âû äóìàåòå î «ìîåé ëè÷íîñòè» íè òîëüêî ìíå, íî è ïðèñóòñòâóþùèì íåîäíîêðàòíî ñîîáùàëîñü. Ìîæíî õîòÿ áû èçðåäêà îáõîäèòüñÿ áåç ýòîé æèâîòðåïåùóùåé èíôîðìàöèè?

  8. Nilling
    #8
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Äîðîãèå äåòè !

    Òåìà íàøåãî ñåãîäíÿøíåãî çàíÿòèÿ - îðãàíèçàöèÿ íàó÷íîé ðàáîòû .

    Èòàê , ïðåäïîëîæèì , íàäî èçó÷èòü ëå÷åáíóþ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü âåùåñòâà Õ

    Ìû õîðîøî ïîìíèì èç ïðîøëûõ óðîêîâ , ÷òî , ïðåæäå ÷åì âåùåñòâî Õ áóäåò ïðåäëîæåíî â êà÷åñòâå ëå÷åáíîãî ñðåäñòâà , ïðîõîäèò ìíîãî ëåò - âåùåñòâî Õ ïîëó÷àþò èç ðàñòåíèé \ ñèíòåçèðóþò , èñïûòûâàþò íà æèâîòíûõ ( êàê ýôôåêòû , òàê è âîçìîæíûå ïîáî÷íûå ÿâëåíèÿ ) , ðåãèñòðèðóþò ýôôåêòû , èñïûòûâàþò íà çäîðîâûõ äîáðîâîëüöàõ , íà îãðàíè÷åííûõ ãðóïïàõ áîëüíûõ ( ñ ðåãèñòðàöèåé ýôôåêòîâ ), è , íàêîíåö , ïðèñòóïàþò ê èçó÷åíèþ íà áîëüøèõ ãðóïïàõ .

     çàâèñèìîñòè îò ïîêàçàíèé ê ïðèìåíåíèþ ïðåïàðàòà ñðîêè èññëåäîâàíèÿ è õàðàêòðà èññëåäîâàíèé ìîãóò ìåíÿòüñÿ ( Âîëîäÿ , íå îòâîðà÷èâàéñÿ , íå îòâëåêàéñÿ ! ) .

    Òàê , äåòêè , åñëè âåùåñòâî ÿâäëÿåòñÿ , ïî ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûì äàííûì , åäèíñòâåííûì , íåçàìåíèìûì è êðàéíå íåîáõîäèìûì , è ïîêàçàëî ñâîþ âûñî÷àéøóþ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü íà áîëåå ðàííèõ ýòàïàõ èçó÷åíèÿ , äîñòàòî÷íî îòêðûòîãî íåñðàâíèòåëüíîãî èññëåäîâàíèÿ äëÿ åãî ðåãèñòðàöèè .

     òîì æå ñëó÷àå , åñëè ýòè÷åñêèå è ìåäèöèíñêèå àñïåêòû ïîçâîëÿþò , áîëåå ðàçóìíî ïðîâîäèòü ñðàâíèòåëüíûå èëè ïëàöåáî- êîíòðîëèðóåìûå , ìíîãîöåíòðîâûå , ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûå ( Çàéöåâ , ÿ ñêîëüêî ðàç ãîâîðèëà - ñëóøàé âíèìàòåëüíî !!! ) èññëåäîâàíèÿ .( Ïðè ýòîì óêàçûâàþòñÿ êîíå÷íûå è ñóððîãàòíûå òî÷êè , êîòîðûå áóäóò ó÷òåíû - ðàäîñòè íåò , ÷òî ïåðåä ñìåðòüþ áîëüíîé îõ êàê õîðîøî ñåáÿ ÷óâñòâîâàë. è ïðîäóêöèÿ èíòåðëåéêèíà 2 íîðìàëèçîâàëàñü... Êîðîíàðíàÿ -òî áëÿøêà ñîâñåì óìåíüøèëàñü , æàëêî , áåäíÿãà , îò òîñêè ïîâåñèëñÿ è ïð...)- (ÿñíî , Âîëîäå÷êà ? )

    Ïðè ýòîì èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ñëåäóþùàÿ ñõåìà - âåùåñòâî Õ ñðàâíèâàåòñÿ ñ âåùåñòâîì Z ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ áîëåçíüþ D , æåëàòåëüíî ñ ïîìîùüþ ðàíäîìèçàöèè è îñëåïëåíèÿ

    Êàêèå ìîãóò áûòü îøèáêè ? (Çàéöåâ , íå òÿíè ðóêó , âíà÷àëå ïîñëóøàé ..).

    Îøèáêè ìîãóò áûòü äîïóùåíû ïðè âûáîðå âåùåñòâà ñðàâíåíèÿ - æåëàòåëüíî áðàòü âåùåñòâî ñ õîðîøî óñòàíîâëåííûìè è äîêàçàííûìè ñâîéñòâàìè . Ìîãóò áûòü îøèáêè ïðè ðàíäîìèçàöèè , ïðè çàïîëíåíèè êàðò , ïðè ìîíèòîðèðîâàíèè èññëåäîâàíèÿ , ïðè ñòàòèñòè÷åñêîé îáðàáîòêå .

    Ìîãóò áûòü íåïðàâèëüíî ñôîðìèðîâàíû ãðóïïû , ìîãóò áûòü âûðàæåííûå ðàçëè÷èÿ âî âêóñîâûõ ñâîéñòâàõ ïðåïàðàòîâ - íàðïèìåð , îäíî âåùåñòâî áóäåò ñëàäêèì , à äðóãîå - ãîðüêèì èç -çà îñîáåííîñòåé íàïîëíèòåëÿ , ÷òî óâåëè÷èò drop - out â îäíîé èç ãðóïï è ïð. è äð.

    Ìîãóò áûòü ìàõèíàöèè â äåÿòåëüíîñòè ëþäåé èëè ïîãðåøíîñòè, ñâÿçàííûå ñ èõ êâàëèôèêàöèåé .Ìîãóò áûòü îøèáêè â ìåòîäàõ ñòàòèñòè÷åñêîé îáðàáîòêè , èñïîëüçîâàííûõ äëÿ äàííîãî èññëäåîâàíèÿ è îøèáêè â èíòåðïðåòàöèè ðåçóëüòàòîâ .

    Ò.å ñàìî ïå ñåáå óêàçàíèå íà òîò èëè èíîé äèçàéí èññëäåîâíàèÿ - ýòî óêàçàíèå èìåííî íà òî , ÊÀÊ èññëäåîâíàèå áûëî ïðåâåäåíî .

    À äàëüøå - åùå èíòåðåñíåå . Åñëè âñå ñêëàäûâàåòñÿ äëÿ ëåêàðñòâà óäà÷íî è îíî ïðèõîäèò â æèçíü , òî îíî èñïîëüçóåòñ ÏÎ ÓÊÀÇÀÍÍÛÌ ÏÎÊÀÇÀÍÈßÌ È Ó ÈÑÑËÅÄÎÂÀÍÍÎÉ ãðóïïû . Ïðè ýòîì ñ÷èòàåòñÿ , ÷òî äàííîå âåùåñòâî èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ñ óðîâíåì äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè  èëè À.Íî ýòî íå çíà÷èò , ÷òî ïîëó÷åííûå â ïðîâåäåííû èññëåäîâíèÿõ äàííûå ïåðåíîñÿòñÿ àâòîìàòè÷åñêè ( íåò , Äæîí , ýòî íå ïåðåíîñèöà , à ïåðåíîñÿòñÿ - Âîëîäÿ , òû ñëåäèøü ? )íà äðóãèå ãðóïïû ëèö.

    Ò.å. , íïðì.. íîâîíîðì íà ìîìåíò ðåãèñòðàöèè íå áûë èññëåäîâàí ó ëèö ñòàðøå 70 ëåò , è , ñëåäîâàòåëüíî , ÍÅÒ îñíîâíàíèé ïîëàãàòü , ÷òî òî , ÷òî èçâåñòâíî î ïðåïàðàòå , ìîæåò áûòü ýêñòðàïîëèðîâàíî íà ýòó âîçðàñòíóþ ãðóïïó .

    Âñå ïîíÿëè , äåòè ??

    Òå , êòî çàèíòåðåñóåòñÿ äàííûì âîïðîñîì , ìîæåò ïî÷èòàòü î÷åíü èíòåðåñíóþ è âïîëíå äîñòóïíóþ ëèòåðàòóðó..

    Íó âîò è çâîíîê . Âñåãî ÂÀì ëó÷øåãî , ðåáÿòà.. Âîëîäå÷êà , òåáå ÷òî-òî íåïîíÿòíî ??

  9. shar
    #9
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Êàê íàïèñàíî! Êóäà òàì Òîìàñ Ìîðó!

    Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà, íèêîãäà íå áûë ïîêëîííèêîì óòîïè÷åñêèõ ðîìàíîâ, íî åñëè íà÷íåòå ïèñàòü Âû ñòàíó ÷èòàòü âñþ íî÷ü íàïðîëåò è, âîçìîæíî, äàæå óìèëåíî âñïëàêíó â ïîäóøêó.

  10. Àëåêñàíäð 29
    #10
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Ïðîñòèòå, êîëëåãè, íî â äàííîì ñëó÷àå áûëî áû ïðàâèëüíî íå ñìåøèâàòü âîïðîñ ýôôåêòèâíîñòè ïðåïàðàòà ñ âîçìîæíîñòüþ åãî ïðîíèêíîâåíèåì íà ðûíîê, îñîáåííî àìåðèêàíñêèé. Äàííûé ïðîöåññ ÿâëÿåòñÿ ïðàêòè÷åñêè íåïðåîäîëèìûì ïðåïÿòñòâèåì, è ýòî íàçûâàåòñÿ "çàùèòîé îòå÷åñòâåííîãî ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿ"... Ïóñòü äàæå âî âðåä îòå÷åñòâåííîìó ïîòðåáèòåëþ. Ýòî Âàì íå õåëëåâñêèå òþðè â ðîññèéñêèå àïòåêè ïðîòîëêíóòü.

    Ò.å., ÿ õî÷ó ëåãîíüêî íàìåêíóòü, ÷òî äåëî çäåñü íå â äîêàçàííîñòè ýôôåêòà, à ñòðîãî â êîììåð÷åñêèõ èíòåðåñàõ.

    Íó íå ñëó÷àéíî æå ñàìûì ïîïóëÿðíûì ñðåäñòâîì îò àëëåðãè÷åñêîãî íàñìîðêà â ÑØÀ äî ñèõ ïîð ÿâëÿåòñÿ äèìåäðîë (íà àìåðèêàíñêîì ÿçûêå - áåíàäðèë). À ìû âîò çà÷åì-òî ðàññóæäàëè î êàêîì-òî èçáèðàòåëüíîì äåéñòâèèè...

  11. Liudmila
    #11
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Óâàæàåìûé Hard!

    Ýòà, äîñòàòî÷íî î÷åâèäíàÿ ïðè÷èíà, è ïîäðàçóìåâàëàñü.  ÑØÀ, âîçìîæíî áîëüøå, ÷åì ãäå-ëèáî, òå èëè èíûå äåÿíèÿ îïðåäåëÿþòñÿ ïðîìûøëåííî-ôèíàíñîâûìè ëîááè.  êîíöå êîíöîâ, âî ìíîãîì îò íèõ çàâèñèò êòî áóäåò ñëåäóþùèì ïðåçèäåíòîì ñòðàíû, à êòî ýêñïåðòîì FDA. Ýòî íå çíà÷èò, ÷òî ëîááèðóþòñÿ ðåøåíèÿ, ñïîñîáñòâóþùèå ëèøü äëÿ ñèþìèíóòíîãî íàáèâàíèÿ êàðìàíà: â áîëüøîì áèçíåñå ðàáîòàþò, êàê ïðàâèëî, óìíûå è äàëüíîâèäíûå ëþäè. Íî ýòî, êàê Âû ïîíèìàåòå, ìîæåò îêàçàòüñÿ òðóäíî ïðåîäîëèìûì ïðåïÿòñòâèåì äëÿ êîíêóðèðóþùèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ è ìåòîäèê èëè, ê ïðèìåðó, äëÿ îòêàçà îò àíòèáèîòèêîâ ïðè âûêàðìëèâàíèè ïòèöû, åñëè îíè íåñóò óãðîçó ôèíàíñîâîìó áëàãîïîëó÷èþ ýòîãî áèçíåñà.

    Ïî ïîâîäó óòîïèè, íàðèñîâàííîé óâàæàåìîé Ãàëèíîé Àôàíàñüåâíîé, ÿ å¸ ïîíèìàþ: òàê õî÷åòñÿ ó÷èòü ïåðâîêëàøåê íà ÷åì-òî ÷èñòîì, ñâåòëîì. ß åé ïðèçíàòåëåí, ÷òî òàêèì îáðàçîì, îíà õîòåëà, ïî-âèäèìîìó, ñîçäàòü õîðîøåå íàñòðîåíèå è ó ìåíÿ.

  12. Àíòîí Ëåâèí
    #12
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Äà , ïëîõî ó ìåíÿ ñ ïåäàãîãè÷åñêèìè ñïîñîáíîñòÿìè .

    ß îòíþäü íå ñîáèðàþñü ïðîâîäèòü ðàçâåäðàáîòó â ôàðìôèðìàõ - ÿ íå Øòèðëèö . ß òîëüêî õî÷ó ñêàçàòü , ÷òî åñëè èññëåäîâàíèå ñðàâíèòåëüíîå , òî âàæíî ïðèìåðíî ïðåäñòàâëÿòü ñåáå , êàê âûãëÿäèò ñòàíäàðòíûé îáðàçåö . Ñîãëàñèòåñü , ÷òî ñëîâà - îíà ïðåêðàñíåå Îäðè Õåïáåðí çâó÷àò íåñêîëüêî èíà÷å , ÷åì ñëîâà -îíà ïðåêðàñíåå Ëèè Àõåäæàêîâîé , èëè , ïðèìåíèòåëüíî ê èñòîðèè ñ áåòàñåðêîì- îíà òàê æå õîðîøà , êàê äàìà â ÷àäðå è õèäæàáå ( íà âñÿêèé ñëó÷àé çàñòàâèëà íåçíàêîìêó íàäåòü îáà ïðåäìåòà ) .

    Êîíöåïöèÿ æå àíãåëîâ âî ïëîòè , ïðîìîòèðóþùèõ íåìåäèêàìåíòîçíûå ìåòîäû è äüÿâîëîâ èç FDA ïîðîé íà÷èíàåò íàäîåäàòü .

    Ýïîïåÿ ñ áåòàñåðêîì ìíå ïðåäñòàâëÿåòñÿ î÷åíü èíòåðåñíîé - ÷åëîâå÷åñêèå çíàíèÿ íåñîâåðøåííû , íå óñïåâàåøü çà âñåì ïðîñëåäèòü , òåì áîëåå âíå ñôåðû òâîèõ èíòåðåñîâ , è , êàê ìíå êàæåòñÿ , ÷èòàòåëü ïîëó÷èë íóæíóþ èíôîðìàöèþ .Âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå ÿ ïî - ïðåæíåìó íå áóäó âîçðàæàòü ïðîòèâ íàçíà÷åíèÿ íåâðîëîãàìè ìîèì áîëüíûì ýòîãî ïðåïàðàòà ( åñëè îí èì ïîêàçàí ) , íî âîçüìó äëÿ ñåáÿ íà çàìåòêó âñå , ÷òî óçíàëà íîâîãî î åãî èñòîðèè.

    Êîíêóðåíöèÿ â ôàðìáèçíåñå íå ìîæåò íå ïðèíèìàòüñÿ âî âíèìàíèå ( ýíäîêðèíîëîãè äî ñèõ ïîð ñêîðáÿò îá èçîëèïàíå äà è ïî WHI ñïëåòíè õîäÿò ), íî ýòî è ôîðìà áîðüáû çà êà÷åñòâî - êà÷åñòâî è èññëåäîâàíèé , è ïðåïàðàòà .

  13. Yulia_K
    #13
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Ìäà, ìîæåò äåéñòâèòåëüíî ìåíÿ â ïåðâîì êëàññå íå òîìó ó÷èëè? Ñìîòðþ íà äèñêóññèþ è íèêàê â òîëê íå âîçüìó, êòî òàì, ê ïðèìåðó, ïëàöåáî: Îäðè Õåïáåðí èëè Ëèÿ Àõåäæàêîâà? È êòî èç íèõ ÷àäðó âìåñòå ñ õèäæàáå íàòÿíóë?

    È, âîîáùå, ÷òî íîâîãî î áåòàãèñòèíå ñòàëî èçâåñòíî èç ýòîé äèñêóññèè, êðîìå òîãî, ÷òî ñâåðõ çàíÿòîìó FDA íå äî íåãî, êàê è äî öåëîãî ðÿäà äðóãèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ?

    È ëîááèðîâàíèå, åñòåñòâåííî, ýòî «ôîðìà áîðüáû çà êà÷åñòâî». Âîò ïðîëîááèðîâàëè ïîâûøåíèå ïîøëèí íà ââîç èíîìàðîê, êà÷åñòâî «Æèãóëåé» ïðÿìî íà ãëàçàõ ðîñòè ñòàëî.

  14. ulitka
    #14
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Åùå íåìíîãî ïî ïîâîäó óïîìÿíóòîé ñòàòüè "Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study".

    Ïîëàãàþ, ÷òî óðîâåíü äèçàéíà ñòàíîâèòñÿ ïîíÿòåí ñðàçó ïî îáúÿâëåíèþ èññëåäóåìîé ãðóïïû: "patients with vertigo of various origins".

    À âîò è èññëåäóåìûå ïîêàçàòåëè: "MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks".

    Îñîáåííî ìíå íðàâèòñÿ ïîñëåäíèé - èíòåíñèâíîñòü ãîëîâîêðóæåíèé.

    Ó êîãî åñòü ñîìíåíèÿ, ÷òî çà 6 íåäåëü áîëüøèíñòâî ïàöèåíòîâ ñ "ðàçíûìè ôîðìàìè ãîâîêðóæåíèé" áóäóò ÷óâñòâîâàòü ñåáÿ ëó÷øå? Áåç âñÿêîãî ëå÷åíèÿ...

    Âîò âàì è âåñü "Clinical Trial. Randomized Controlled Trial".



    Òåïåðü âîïðîñ, ïî÷åìó ñòàòüÿ âñåæå ïîïàëà â æóðíàë?

    Äà òàêèì æå ïóòåì, êàê è âñå ñòàòüè, ïóáëèêóåìûå Õåëëåì (íåñìîòðÿ íà òî, ÷òî â äàííîì ñëó÷àå ýòà ôèðìà âûñòóïàåò êàê "áåäíûé áàâàðñêèé ðîäñòâåííèê", ìû òî çíàåì, ÷òî â øòàòàõ îíà íå òàê óæ áåççàùèòíà ).

    Áåòàãèñòèäèí òî è óïîìèíàëñÿ íå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû åãî â àìåðèêó ïðîòàëêèâàòü, à ñîâñåì íàîáîðîò - ÷òîáû âåðòèãîõåëü ðåêëàìèðîâàòü.



    À íàñ÷åò êîíêóðåíöèè, òàê îíà õîðîøà ïðè ðàâíûõ óñëîâèÿõ. À òàê ïðèõîäèòñÿ åâðîïåéñêèì ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿì ëåêàðñòâ çàêëþ÷àòü äîãîâîð êàê â ñòàðîì àíåêäîòå:



    Èçÿ òîðãóåò ñåìå÷êàìè âîçëå ×åéç Ìàíõåòòåí áàíêà. Õàèì ïðîñèò ó íåãî âçàéìû äåíåã.

    - Íå ìîãó, - ãîâîðèò Èçÿ - ó ìåíÿ äîãîâîð ñ Ìàíõåòòåí Áàíêîì: ÿ íå äàþ äåíåã â äîëã, à îíè íå òîðãóþò ñåìå÷êàìè.



    Âîïðîñ íà çàñûïêó: êàê ìíîãî åâðîïåéñêèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ ïðîäàåòñÿ â ÑØÀ? Òåïåðü ñðàâíèì îáðàòíûé ïîêàçàòåëü... Âîò, è ñòàíåò ÿñíî, êòî òîðãóåò ñåìå÷êàìè.

  15. æåêà
    #15
    ×èòàòåëü Íåäóã.Ðó
    Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè,



    Ñïàñèáî çà Âàøè èíòåðåñíûå çàìå÷àíèÿ. Äåéñòâèòåëüíî, èñòîðèÿ äàííîãî ïðåïàðàòà ïîêàçàëàñü ìíå êðàéíå çàáàâíîé. Ïîçâîëüòå ìíå äîáàâèòü íåñêîëüêî äîïîëíèòåëüíûõ ôàêòîâ.



    Ôàêò # 1.  èþíå 1999 ãîäà ìàòåðèàëû ïî äàííîìó ïðåïàðàòó áûëè âòîðè÷íî ðàññìîòðåíû êîìèññèåé FDA, â ñâÿçè ñ îïóáëèêîâàííûìè â Åâðîïå ðàáîòàìè. Ñïåöèàëèñòàìè áûë íàïèñàí ïîäðîáíûé îáçîð íà îñíîâàíèè êîòîðîãî êîìèññèÿ ïðèøëà ê ñëåäóþùåìó çàêëþ÷åíèþ. "Íà äàííûé ìîìåíò íåò îñíîâàíèé ïîëàãàòü, ÷òî äàííûé ïðåïàðàò îáëàäàåò âûðàæåííûìè îòðèöàòåëüíûìè ïîáî÷íûìè äåéñòâèÿìè, îäíàêî íåò è ñåðü¸çíûõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ â ïîëüçó òåðàïåâòè÷åñêîãî ýôôåêòà."  ñâÿçè ñ ÷åì êîìèññèÿ ïðèñâîèëà äàííîìó ïðåïàðàòó ñòàòóñ "èíåðòíîé ñóáñòàíöèè". Íà ïðàêòèêå ýòî îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî äàííûé ïðåïàðàò íå ïðîäàåòñÿ ÷åðåç îáû÷íóþ àïòå÷íóþ ñåòü, íî ìîæåò áûòü ÂÛÏÈÑÀÍ ÂÐÀ×ÎÌ è ïðèîáðåòåí ïàöèåíòîì ó òàê íàçûâàåìûõ "US compounding pharmacies" èëè ÷åðåç èíòåðíåò ó åâðîïåéñêèõ ïðîèçâîäèòåëåé.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, äàííûé ïðåïàðàò íå áóäåò ïîêðûò ìåäèöèíñêîé ñòàõîâêîé ïàöèåíòà. Íî òàê êàê ñòîèìîñòü ìåñÿ÷íîãî êóðñà ñîñòàâëÿåò ïðèìåðíî $50, äàííûé ôàêò íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ ñåðü¸çíûì ïðåïÿòñòâèåì ê íàçíà÷åíèþ äàííîãî ïðåïàðàòà.



    Ôàêò #2. Äåòàëüíûé îáçîð ïî áåòàñåðêó, êîòîðûé ìîæíî íàéòè â Cochranå Database, îõâàòûâàåò âñþ ëèòåðàòóðó äî 1999 ãîäà è áûë íàïèñàí ÊÀÍÀÄÑÊÈÌÈ ñïåöèàëèñòàìè. Èõ çàêëþ÷åíèå ïðàêòè÷åñêè ñëîâî â ñëîâî ïîâòîðÿåò ìíåíèå ýêñïåðòîâ ïðè FDA. Çàïîäîçðèòü êàíàäñêèõ äîêòîðîâ James and Burton â ïîäûãðûâàíèè FDA, äóìàþ, íèêîìó íå ïðèä¸ò â ãîëîâó.



    Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2001;(1):CD001873.

    Betahistine for Meniere's disease or syndrome.

    James AL, Burton MJ.

    ENT Department, Hospital for Sick Children, 555 University Avenue, Torronto, Ontario, CANADA.



    BACKGROUND: Meniere's disease is characterised by attacks of hearing loss, tinnitus and disabling vertigo. Betahistine is used by many people to reduce the frequency and severity of these attacks but there is conflicting evidence relating to its effects. OBJECTIVES: The objective of this review was to assess the effects of betahistine in people with Meniere's disease. SEARCH STRATEGY: We searched the Cochrane Controlled Trials Register (The Cochrane Library issue 4,1999), MEDLINE (January 1966 to December 1999), EMBASE (January 1985 to December 1999) and Index Medicus (1962 to 1966). We checked reference lists of articles and contacted pharmaceutical companies for further studies. SELECTION CRITERIA: Randomised controlled studies of betahistine versus placebo in Meniere's disease. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: Two reviewers independently assessed trial quality and extracted data. Study authors were contacted for further information. MAIN RESULTS: Six trials involving 162 patients were included. No trial met the highest quality standard set by the review because of inadequate diagnostic criteria or methods, and none assessed the effect of betahistine on vertigo adequately. Most trials suggested a reduction of vertigo with betahistine and some suggested a reduction in tinnitus but all these effects may have been caused by bias in the methods. One trial with good methods showed no effect of betahistine on tinnitus compared with placebo in 35 patients. None of the trials showed any effect of betahistine on hearing loss. No adverse effects were found with betahistine. REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to say whether betahistine has any effect on Meniere's disease.



    Ôàêò #3. Åñëè äàííûé ïðåïàðàò è ðàññìàòðèâàåòñÿ àìåðèêàíñêèì âðà÷îì êàê âàðèàíò ëå÷åíèÿ áîëüíîãî, òî òîëüêî â ñëó÷àå êîíêðåòíîé ïàòîëîãèè, à èìåííî áîëåçíè/ñèíäðîìà Ìåíüåðà. Îäíàêî ìíåíèå àìåðèêàíñêèõ ýêñïåðòîâ ïî ëå÷åíèþ äàííîé ïàòîëîãèè ñâîäèòñÿ ê ñëåäóùåìó: "äàííûé ïðåïàðàò ñêîðåå âñåãî îêàçûâàåò ëèøü ýôôåêò ïëàöåáî è ìîæåò áûòü èñïîëüçîâàí ïî ïðîñüáå ïàöèåíòà ("òåðàïèÿ îò÷àÿíüÿ&quot". Ïîñëåäíèå èòàëüÿíñêèå ðàáîòû òàêæå íå âûçâàëè ó ýêñïåðòîâ âîñõèùåíèÿ, ââèäó íåñîâåðøåíñòâà äèçàéíà.



    Ôàêò #4. Î âàæíîñòè äèçàéíà â ïðîâåäåíèè êëèí. èñïûòàíèé. Èíòåðåñíåéøàÿ èñòîðèÿ ïðèêëþ÷èëàñü âî Ôðàíöèè è Ãðåöèè. Òàì ãðóïïà ó÷åíûõ-âðà÷åé ñðàâíèâàëà ýôôåêò òðèìåòàçèäèíà è áåòàñåðêà äëÿ ëå÷åíèÿ âåðòèãî. Çíàåòå, êàêîé áûë ïîëó÷åí ðåçóëüòàò? Òðèìåòàçèäèí áîëåå ýôôåêòèâåí, ÷åì áåòàñåðê. Âîò ýòè ðàáîòû:

    Bouccara D.

    Contribution of vastarel 20 mg (trimetazidine) in the treatment of vertigo: synopsis of clinical trials

    Ann Otolaryngol Chir Cervicofac. 1999 Apr;116(1):43-6. Review. French.



    Coyas A. Related Articles, Links

    The efficacy of trimetazidine in cochleovestibular disorders of ischemic origin. A crossover control versus placebo trial

    Ann Otolaryngol Chir Cervicofac. 1990;107 Suppl 1:82-7. French.



    Martini A, De Domenico F.

    Trimetazidine versus betahistine in Meniere's disease. A double blind method

    Ann Otolaryngol Chir Cervicofac. 1990;107 Suppl 1:20-7. French.



    Kluyskens P, Lambert P, D'Hooge D. Related Articles, Links

    Trimetazidine versus betahistine in vestibular vertigo. A double blind study

    Ann Otolaryngol Chir Cervicofac. 1990;107 Suppl 1:11-9. French.



    Wayoff M.

    Evaluation of the therapeutic efficacy of vastarel 20 mg (trimetazidine) in cochleovestibular syndromes. A double-blind study versus placebo

    Ann Otolaryngol Chir Cervicofac. 1984;101(7):565-9. French.



    Ðàçáîð äàííûõ ðàáîò, ïðîâåäåííûé ãðóïïîé ñïåöèàëèñòîâ ìîæíî ïðî÷èòàòü â Prescrire International çà 2000 ãîä. Çàãîëîâîê òàêîâ:



    "Òrimetazidine: à second look. Just a placebo."



    Prescrire Int. 2000 Feb;9(45):207-9.



    (1) Trimetazidine is licensed in France for the prevention of angina attacks and for symptomatic treatment of vertigo and tinnitus. (2) In angina the evidence on trimetazidine is sorely lacking. The only available comparative trial failed to show that trimetazidine monotherapy was even as good as low-dose propranolol. For want of appropriate assessment, it is not known if trimetazidine can reinforce the activity of betablockers, the reference treatment. (3) In symptomatic treatment of vertigo and tinnitus, the three available placebo-controlled trials show significant differences in favour of trimetazidine, but these differences are too small to be clinically relevant. (4) Data on the adverse effect profile of trimetazidine are virtually non existent. Gastrointestinal disorders and headache have been reported.



    Êàê âèäíî, ëå÷åíèå òðèìåòàçèäèíîì âåðòèãî íå âûçûâàåò îñîáîãî ýíòóçèàçìà ó ñïåöèàëèñòîâ, à îí â ñâîþ î÷åðåäü áûë ýôôåêòèâíåå áåòàñåðêà.



    Íàâåðíîå, äàííûå ðàáîòû íå ìîãóò áûòü èñïîëüçîâàíû êàê àðãóìåíò äëÿ ïðåêðàùåíèÿ èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ áåòàñåðêà â êëèíè÷åñêîé ïðàêòèêå. Îäíàêî, ïî ìîåìó ìíåíèþ, äîëæíû íàñòîðàæèâàòü, îñîáåííî â ñèòóàöèè, êîãäà ïîêàçàíèÿ ê ïðèìåíåíèþ äàííîãî ïðåïàðàòà áûëè ðåçêî ðàñøèðåíû.





    Âñåõ ñ íàñòóïàþùèì Íîâûì ãîäîì,



    Å.Å. Ñòóäåíöîâ

Êëèíèêà ñòîìàòîëîãèè è êîñìåòîëîãèè â Ìîñêâå

Ìåòêè ýòîé òåìû

Âàøè ïðàâà

  • Âû ìîæåòå ñîçäàâàòü íîâûå òåìû
  • Âû ìîæåòå îòâå÷àòü â òåìàõ
  • Âû íå ìîæåòå ïðèêðåïëÿòü âëîæåíèÿ
  • Âû íå ìîæåòå ðåäàêòèðîâàòü ñâîè ñîîáùåíèÿ
  •