In continuation of subject VitKa from 28.03 12 : 49 (the report in that subject does not pass or take place...

[Alexander]

In continuation of subject VitKa from 28.03 12 : 49 (the report in that subject does not pass or take place, probably, iz-for lengths):
Yes, masshtabno it is painted, thanks... The monitor to me to throw on a floor it would not be desirable:).. So much all is told or said what even to add there is nothing. I shall tell or say only about the personal sensation (only do not beat painfully;).. At me as any toper, had a stage when I tried to restore the moderate use; on everyone... But, as it is ridiculous, even more often I came to conclusion, that I start to think out to myself "excuses or helps"... I understand, you about other - you the people grounded in psychology; you see " the moderate use " only after " clearing of soul ", an autohypnosis, the purpose in a life, etc. and t. Item; you see the use of alcohol only after full treatment... But you SEE it or him, so? And why? Let I for you shall be "narrow-minded", "fanatic" - but, reading your reports, me the sensation - that did not leave or abandon all this unconscious impulses of the illness or disease filtered through bolee-less recovering consciousness. I shall be very glad, if it not so. But my perception (emotional) these your reports remains such. " And I so tried to deceive myself, was... " . Once again I shall repeat - I very much would like to be mistaken, and if you, fairly "having examined" reports fairly will tell or say to myself - " is not present, Alexander is not right, he AA-shnikov nachitalsja " - chtozh then I wash arms or hand... I here too fairly having looked or seen at the reports, think - that in many respects me moves envy - I feel myself powerless kogda-or moderately to use, bessislnym it to make. And I envy you which see such opportunity; and the some people (like VitKa) - even try to realize the given program during a life. Eh, good programmka... Esperal only it is stirred or prevented;)... At, persons free;)))... Here so...

[Alex]

Not, not absolutely. Fairly, to differentiate "draft" and desire already understand a problem I can:)
Ten years with this business I understand... Has learned to distinguish one from another. I can not speak for kamradov, but also their texts I have understood as " disposal of Dependence ", instead of " Have driven or bent, brothers!!! ".
SHarahnu Latin:)
Sublata causa, tollitur morbus - with elimination of the reason illness or disease is eliminated or erased;removed.
Here in what the reason and how it or her to eliminate or erase;remove are we and we try to find out.
Or "reasons". That it is more probable.
Because deficiencies of enzymes or spirituality (depending on model:), mysterious tetragidroizohinoliny, and other is as it was already discussed - Hypotheses. Called kak-that to liquidate a gap in a theoretical part of an addictology. Really, gde-that and enzymes, where that and disturbance of metabolites TSNS, gde-that in general an alcoholism a short secondary disease to primary neurotic either psychotic frustration, or elementary stressful situations... But Nobelevka for the proved theory of alcoholic dependence and lays untouched. Probably, and remains, as there is a probability that that reason are individual.
At least mnogofaktornost the reasons serves in favour of such idea. As well as the importance of a social factor which pochemu-that often is ignored.
And individuality of convalescence - for today is not present the techniques possessing sufficient efficiency for all.
A little bit chaotically... And so, if will exist the PROVED theory of a proconvergence and current of alcoholic dependence (instead of "alcoholism", by the way this term is not used any more neither in MKB, nor in DSN) in which it will be in black and white certain, that by virtue of factor X and factor N with factor C alcohol is counter-indicative to people - OK, I only shall be glad and I shall forget in general about existence of such drink:)
To anybody in a head will not come at a diabetic forum to discuss quite seriously " And whether I am sick actually of Diabetum??? Or fuflo and I can use it sweet? ".
Before I think we quite have the right to discuss this subject freely:) Besides I shall repeat is a safety issue. preduprezhden - it is armed.

[Alexander]

Certainly, we have quite the right to discuss freely this subject that we actually and do or make. And you have very much encouraged me, that in ten years I can freely distinguish draft and desire to understand a problem:) . The main thing - them to live... I, if am fair, in general put under doubt a basic opportunity them to distinguish, if to consider or examine;survey draft as unconscious aspiration... And business voobshchem-that not in " have driven or bent, brothers " - if all was so simply... In fact if I now shall tell or say "have driven" or bent" - you in fact hardly will listen to me, so? And I, continuing to analyze " a militant sobering toper " find the position in her logic blanks, which gradually (despite of caution) can tolkanut me on experiment (well, not me so someone of another). As in " the disguised advertising " narcotics - clauses or articles came across such, vidat - " in general all of it or this to do or make it is not necessary, "... Then there is a description - as all this is done or made / detailed retsept/-then ". .hotja we, certainly, for what we do not agitate ". And you that - 10 years sober? I congratulate... Or have started to understand a problem when still drank or saw? I congratulate even more. I, when saws, did not understand in what - simply it was necessary to me, and all... To me was to spit on that - what for and why - I "have taken" - and it is happy always and everywhere... While - not while... And in general - simply samoutverditsja it is necessary to me;) - and if on a site increases people with distinct from my point of view - I start to feel a strong psychological dyscomfort and desire of all to overpersuade;). Or to get drunk...... Because I a priori consider or count the point of view insufficiently proved, imperfect; and whereas scientific proofs to her to pick up difficultly, I aspire to prove its or her "approval". When I do not see it or him, I start to feel unreliability of my point of view;). As there it bish on scientific - conformism, whether chto-;). Well, the introspection has turned out. And to you it is weak?;))))

[Alexander-Alex]

Well here, see: (Katerina on March, 29th 2004 16 : 05 : 58)... Smajlikov-that is not present like...

[Michael]

Alexander you wrote " reading your reports, me the sensation - that did not leave or abandon all this unconscious impulses of the illness or disease filtered through bolee-less recovering consciousness ". And it not seems to you that treating ideas of other participants of a forum on an opportunity of the moderate consumption you everywhere see a dirty trick, plot of dark forces, the blind instrument in arms or hand of illness or disease, mental viruses of illness or disease which mimikriruet and constantly provokes to ideas on alcohol?

[Alex]

Michael that you have noticed - at the first stage of sobriety such attitude or relation to any idea of the use in general quite often happens..
Though - consequence or investigation aa-shnoj literatures is possible or probable also. " The artful artful enemy " and so on:) Alexander, you wrote " I find in her logic blanks, which gradually (despite of caution) can tolkanut me on experiment.. " That's it therefore I also suggest to make a resource and to communicate and opinions. Logic holes that in idea of "sobriety", that in idea of " the moderate use " can expensive manage, and than more carefully and comprehensively we shall consider or examine these problems - that it will be in my opinion better. All:)
As if to ten years - is not present, I certainly am not sober ten years on end:))) Periodically. Ten years ago I began to study or investigate this problem, reading everything, that could find in this occasion. And ten years ago has stuck first "torpedo". Then different methods tried or tasted - and coding, and another, but it was never broken during action of "interdiction". Only after the termination or ending of term, easy, not hurrying up, studying or investigating the reaction.

[VitEk]

And esperal that, up to the extremity or end of a life operates or works? And " full treatment " probably as takogovo does not exist, for this purpose perfect conditions which to reach or achieve it is impossible at a present life, not Edemsky the Garden, nevertheless are necessary. More likely certain "compromise" pozmoljajushchy to avoid how much or as far as it is probably negative consequences of the use. I make sledujushchee-I divide or share;part in the consciousness of into some parts, and I adjust or I set up one of these parts "supervisor" above the others. I instruct it or her, and I put "main" above all others. When I use, and I leave for "frameworks", and I have a desire to make that nibud "such", this part speaks me, that it or this to do or make it is not necessary, as "instructions" do not approve it. In most cases I listen to this part, and I try to follow its or her indicating. When I come to norm or rate, I understand, that this part has rescueed or saved me from unreasonable actions. Is raspingly a little, but I think, a short has passed. I any more do not remember, where I subtracted or deducted it, or I am itself have thought up, but it works. That is I relax or am relaxed, I have a rest, but if I wish to be beyond, I receive "signal", like as " the red bulb " in a head lights up. Here such psychotechnics. I apply the same and on a sober head, for example, segdnja wished to give one type on bashke and have not given, because have received a signal, that it or this to do or make does not follow, though all my essence very much wished to make it, and later when has calmed down, has understood, that has acted or arrived correctly. Here so.

[Alexander]

To Michael::) the Diagnosis "paranoia" in absentia? Can be;)... I simply know, that I feel and I think, and logically I assume, that something similar should feel and other fastened topers... Generalization, so to say...
To Alex: " at the first stage of sobriety "... Well, I do not know, what there at me a stage. On April, 6th there will be a year " zapojnoj sobriety ", before since 1998 (since that moment as on 2 ju a stage has stepped) there were some spontaneous remissions (two for 10 months, one - 3 mes), well and the periods of " the moderate sobriety ";)... For the last 3, 5 years turn out saws 4 months (two failures - one 3, 5 months and last - 2 weeks / year nazad/after which "has pricked")... I do not know, that it is possible to consider or count as " the second stage ". Actually, such perception of alcohol as now, at me yet was not. In spontaneous remissions there was simply " a rage and hatred ", basically; in failures - "love" - now - something an average... Well, izobretem " stages zapojnoj sobriety ", how stages of an alcoholism?;)

[Alex]

Spontaneous remissions for ten months? neslabo... That up to " the first stage " - yes, year it " the first stage ":)

[Joseph Pupkind (VA pupkin)]

Well, misters, misters or Lord... Well do not worry you so! Ek on Vitka-that at once became more active or were activated. Greedy and with hope. Prirodu-that you will not deceive... Purely or cleanly matematicheski - there is a probability, but vrjad - whether. Alexander! Do not feel defective iz-for suspiciousness. Normally it. Hundred percent or interests - after term will try or taste, probably it is not spontaneous, and it is conscious. For Modesta I pochemu-that am quiet. And Vit'kas to us will return - where will get to. It would be desirable - that is not present, but it - vrjad - whether. We understand all - not fools like. To me personally, most likely such destiny - esperal-the termination or ending of term - the use - esperal. Well also what? The Main thing - to not be afraid of failures, and to react more quickly. And technology AA - shnikov vprintsipe is explainable elements of psychology. The core - be kinder and terpimee, it helps or assists to avoid a strain and an astable emotional status. And with a site - excellent or different idea. It is necessary to break it or him on subjects as a forum of the newspaper " My Family ", and that in our forum of the extremities or ends you will not find, and to chew one and the same it is tiresome. With the best regards.

[Joseph Pupkind (VA pupkin)]

And more, misters. I pochemu-that am assured or confident, that all here going to, except for, perhaps, Modesta, at heart consider or count, what them is that an alcoholism is unique and kak-that even is far-fetched. I in this plan not exception. And so, it is compelled or forced to afflict you. AA-shnaja a phrase I more deep sense, rather than simply negative equipment or installation and samounichizhenie has TOPER IMHO. She means COMPREHENSION the person herself and reconciliation with herself. While we - to the present shall not understand ourselves, alcohol to us to leave it will not be possible. In fact when we speak, that have understood necessity of treatment, it does not mean, that we have accepted its or her all soul. And in occasion of failures - me personally the question very or very much interests, and can in them there is even an advantage or a benefit? If the child after the first impact by a current understands, that fingers in the rosella to put it is impossible, can the some there is on advantage or benefit a similar constant reminder. At me there lived a cat, and so she periodically attacked hot rings of an electric stove - time in three months constantly. The reflex at it or her and was not developed or produced...

[Alexander-Joseph]

Yes... Kak-from 100 % you me "have sharply besieged" that. Also I do not know, to be pleased to me or to be afflicted;). Vprintsipe to wait yet longly; for final confidence (for a case of education of a fibrous capsule around kristallikov esperali in zadnitse) - years 5 6. And suddenly then and to try or taste it will not want;)? Or on the contrary - so it will want, how still never it would be desirable?;) Me the idea, that here does not leave or abandon the first year of refusal of alcohol - the easiest or lightest;most mild; further, when abstinent excruciatings will already be forgotten partially, it will be more complex or difficult. "kajf" and " illusion kajfa " - that will not be forgotten... About deep sense of a phrase " I the toper " - agrees. In occasion of " esperal - the termination or ending - the use " - too a method, certainly; though painfully reminds " ukral-vypil-in prison ";)). Better AA I shall try or taste, only is already active". - to an occasion - whether there is an advantage or a benefit in failures - all can be; though to physical health of advantage or benefit is not present precisely, and you are afraid or rather afraid sometimes (I, anyway), that after failure I shall lose any belief in and efficiency of the treatment and I shall transform all remained life into one big failure...

[Alex]

Joseph, so therefore I and zaregil a new forum already on
http: // www. webforum. ru/wb. php? board = 34165
To not be confused in subjects and ideas.
That up to " depth of soul " - a complicated question.
Each person is unique, and current (and the reasons) is in my opinion unique
Alcoholic dependence - even at this forum at everyone the picture visimosti. In case of the studied or investigated illnesses or diseases, for example asthmas or Diabetum, speech about uniqueness certainly does not go, but here... Features a leg or foot will break.
And for this reason in my opinion it is necessary to discuss all possible or probable, even " dictated by illness or disease " ideas and concepts. That as Alexander spoke was not " logic holes ".
It is possible to surround certainly itself with convenient system of myths, at any stage it and will work - but then when these myths will scatter from collision with a reality, crash of illusions can manage the expensive.
Now about aa-shnom " deep comprehension and acceptance ".
Imho Americans have a little taken a great interest in mozahisticheskoj tendencies to naveshivaniju on themselves
Shortcuts of this or that deviation or " artful illness or disease ".
Curious 12 step-by-step groups like " Anonymous seksogolikov, pereedalshchikov are now widespread, players, grandsons of topers, nephews of narcomaniacs, neighbours sozavisimyh " and so forth Groups of mutual aid it is perfect, but at what here illnesses or diseases which and in MKB that is not present??
Good, try to descend or go some times on group and popredstavljatsja " Greetings! I Joseph, a toper ".
If your sensations thus will be " Comprehension themselves and acceptance "-
That ok, I remove or take out a hat:)
Let's call things by their proper names.
The term "toper" I carry on myself such negative associative load that Greetings is equivalent ", N, a full sediment ".
In Staffs or States has probably put is a little differently.

[Modest]

YOly-paly! Alex, here how much you I know, here so much you "subscribe" for others;) Your experience is only your experience, but as not someone's else. For me the term "toper" does not carry any negative associative load and when I speak " I a toper ", I speak it. Also I live not in Staffs or States. Really, "toper" from the point of view of accepted in our society, sounds contemptiously (pochemu-that "narcomaniac" does not carry such load), but I for a long time o-very skeptically concern to the points of view imposed by a society, sometimes they (these points) me are ridiculous iz-for the absurdity. In due time, seryozno having got confused in the alcoholic problems, fermented on zamknotomu to a circle, dying iz-for impossibility this circle to break off. When there was an opportunity openly to tell or say about the problem (I - a toper!), Has tested simplification. When addressed to the doctor except for shame and I do not remember anything. Probably, has not carried with the doctor. Probably, me has carried with AA. For me the quiet attitude or relation to " I the toper " is an acceptance of the problem, I have ceased to kill the forces in attempts to find way " to supervise a situation " - in the world many other most interesting features:) Recently has spent among itself monitoring:) also has found out, that euphoric memoirs on action of alcohol almost does not remain. These memoirs prevented to accept the fact of loss of an opportunity problemless pitija; last years I did not test pleasure from binge, but in a pursuit of memoirs all tried to find " the dose " after which begins well. Or a way to return this " priemlimuju a dose ". Has not found and is not present desire to spend force on searches.

[VitEk]

In occasion of "udovlstvija" from alcohol. I test "udovlstvie" from alcohol now then when I do not leave for "frameworks". If I have left ra "frameworks" that it any more "udoovolstvie" and the beginning of the extremity or end, and this fact in itself already on a root kills everyone udovlstvie. I can drink a bottle of beer with a small fish, and not test at all messages "to be caught up", as I test chustvo "saturation". And I at all do not know, from what more I receive udovlstvija - from beer with a fish, or from a fish with beer;) And greater also it is not necessary to me. And it is natural not every day:)

[Alex]

Modest, yes I "do not subscribe":))) all is simply valid people different. To me has on the contrary carried with the doctor, but not so with AA:) And just addressing to the doctor I did not test - that that is ashamed of the slightest shame, there is a problem - go to dock, I am not ashamed stamping with a tooth to the stomatologist.
And here it " Greetings, I " - do not perceive a toper.
And, I of the link like give - many amerikany, Englishmen, Germans test too the most unpleasant feeling. Though do not drink, and recognize a problem. I would not write, if it was " only my experience ".
And if aa-evskie sites to esteem, both our and American - there people on the contrary extols this moment of "recognition".
VitEk. And the question has arisen. Whether you during the decision of alcoholic problems have solved casually still any important, directly a problem not concerning the use?

[Alexander - Vit'ka]

e. To you, contrary to opinion of the majority, it was possible to return to the moderate use with 2 j stages? Yours lips yes honey (or beer;) to drink... I for myself do not see such opportunity. And your pleasure - from the most moderate use or from that FACT, what it was not beyond moderated or moderate? I, simply, in due time felt pleasure of that in time have stopped. But, fairly, "moderately" it was not long. My organism is those or I (or y together;)), I do not know, but personally for myself I do not dream of beer with a small fish... And, besides, if it is fair, I do not see ways that me up to such to grow: (. I FOR MYSELF in the moderate use see only dangerous experiment.

[Gennady]

All is correct, misters. Everyone for ITSELF(HIMSELF) PERSONALLY should build the attitudes or relations with alcohol. It is necessary to learn to subordinate it or him to ITSELF, and to not give him an opportunity to get the best above YOU. That's all. Perhaps for someone also it is admissible sometimes butylochka beer, and for someone and is not present... All especially individually, also depends substantially on what you wish to see YOUR life from what YOU receive sensation of integrity and completeness of a life. Successes all!

[Mihal]

Vit'kas that you have described (VitEk on March, 29th 2004 23 : 05 : 17) in my opinion something similar on the concept of a Freudian psychoanalysis of the person where are allocated with three its or her components:
ID (It), recognizing one printsip-the pleasure, consisting of instincts about which the person often also does not suspect, aspirations to pleasure and mors and any forbidden desires expelled in unconscious; I (Ego) operating or working by a principle of a reality, supervising instincts, weakening of a strain, intensifying of pleasure and, at last sverh-I (super-the Ego) where fills a principle of morals and am framed a crest or fornix of interdictions and moral laws. The life of ours I on classics of a psychoanalysis is any constant vypihivanie on demand sverh-I and keeping in unconscious, any disgusting desires. Tired out or driven in unconscious, these desires constantly press on ours I, generating alarms, neurosises and phobias. To cope with initially disgusting things superseded in unconscious or was there, I have developed or produced ours about two tens various protection but if they do not work or I am exhausted in struggle, we opjat-taki start to test constant trouble and ahead of us pavors and wait for alarm. Probably so it is possible to describe and struggle with green zmiem as the conflict of the basic three parts of the person.

[VitEk Alex Alexander]

To Alex - yes, has solved, and not one, and it is not casual. To Alexander - do not play with fire, yet will not prepare enough of fire extinguishers:) do not think At all of it or this. Understand all over again as follows with the life. You even even from smoking could not refuse, about what then the moderate use it is possible to speak in general, if the person does not cope with such easy problem how to refuse cigarettes? One defect provokes and podpityvaet another. First do or make that it is necessary to do or make all over again. Do not try "to jump" over itself, it will not turn out:) Your consciousness - fragmentirovannyj pazl, and your problem or task - to combine it or him in a picture without blanks. When the picture will be combined, the problem or task will be solved. You will understand, when it will occur or happen. And can respond itself to all questions, not asking questions to another. Comprehension and integrity will come. You will dump or reset from yourselves all far-fetched, false, affected, artificial, and will see yourself both this world, and the place and reserving in itself. When you can change yourselves, you can change others, you will know, how it to do or make. But all over again-. Through a pain, searches, doubts, stah, you will fall outside the limits yourselves, and we shall find what is not present in you now. And when it will occur or happen, you will know answers. Gain strength.

[To VitEk Michael]

I am not so strong in a classical psychoanalysis, and it seems to me, he (psychoanalysis) is a little bit confused and does not approach or suit for independent analysis itself. From everything, that came across to me during my searches, to me the theory of games of Eric Berna is closer vseg, is accessible and clear. Besides, as for me, it is very practical. Very practical I find NLP, though a sign with it or him only under books. Tell or say, your knowledge and skills NLP are integrated into you, or exist separately from you, both and skills you show skills only when "recollect" about NLP - skih skills? I like methods which "work" also which are simple enough for daily application, whether it is possible NLP to carry to such methods? How knowledge and skills NLP helped or assisted you to cope with dependence? And whether helped or assisted in general? What technics or technical equipment therefrom you applied to yourselves, and whether applied in general? The Maximal feedback at the minimal efforts - here my motto, NLP gives such result?

[VitEk]

Yes, nearly has not forgotten.... Tomalogija explanatory or sensible enough piece.

[Alex]

VitEk, and whether the decision of these problems has affected or influenced the attitude or relation (and the use) to alcohol? However, a question similar rhetorical:)

[To VitEk Alex]

I cannot tell or say with confidence already, as have how affected or influenced me in the sanction of this problem as I densely enough was engaged in studying of various psychological directions + developed myself spiritually. Changes occured or happened in all spheres of a life so I can not approve or confirm with accuracy, that that's it here IT has helped or assisted me. It were also Bryan Trejsi's books, Zig Ziglara, Eric Berna, SHejnov " the Latent management of the person ", Vladimir Loginov " Methods of mental protection ", Igor Vagin, Harry Adler, Robert Kiosaki, Don of the File, John Kalench, Ernest Tsvetkov, Vladimir Dubkovsky, Jim Ron (especially to like), John Maksvell, and more to many other things of the book and clauses or articles which names of authors I now shall not recollect. Besides I practised for myself method SHichko, (change of the base attitude or relation for alcohol), read materials AA, Valery Sevrjukov " Cure myself ", NLP shnye books... Besides I read () the Bible, I study or investigate spiritual questions. Strong influence on me was rendered with " the book of wisdom " - it is possible to find in a network, and is called, and " Correct logic ". Besides I visit or attend the seminars promoting personal body height, and I read through everything, that I consider or count useful in the Network. Therefore "map" as vyrazhajutsja NLP ry, in my consciousness has undergone appreciable changes in comparison with what she was 3 2 years ago, and with these changes the attitude or relation to alcohol and alcoholic problems has changed also. I began to think " on another ", whether that. At me the behaviour, habits, predilections, motives has changed. I already responded Alexander about interrelation of sex dependence and alcoholic so I had (to have) to solve for myself also this problem. Still attitudes or relations with mother, my sore point which also required "study". Family attitudes or relations. Attitudes or relations with the child. At heart I aggressive enough person, with it or this too it was necessary "to work". It was necessary to get rid of old insults and desire "to revenge". And it is probably far not all... Here briefly the answer to your question.

[Alex]

Mda.. neslabo! From the literature listed by you read only Bern. Thanks for the link to " Correct logic " - I shall find - I esteem.
I recommend still Robert Anthony on http: // lib. ru/DPEOPLE/entoni. txt
Reasons on a subject.
I clearly knowingly asked this question. As wrote earlier - cleaning or removing the reason we clean or remove consequence or investigation.
On the experience - job with mirovozreniem, character gradually both reduced "draft" and promoted more and more soft currents of "failures" that is not absolutely entered in " traditional model " - " advance of illness or disease " even during sobriety and more and more heavy use there is on the contrary postulated.
Your experience especially is not entered in the traditional scheme or plan.
Conclusion. We have two hypotheses of alcoholic dependence. If the computer analogy - "failure" or at a level of "iron", or at a level of "software" is pertinent. That is - or biological disturbances (repeatedly discussed fermentno-mediaeven problems), or disturbances psychological (mirovozrencheskie).
The finding and elimination of "failure" will cause stable job of system.
Biological factors... imho a little for ears.
And here "glitches" program (psychological)...
Probably also there is required factor X.
Conclusion - cleaning of "code" from glitches (or "deinstalljatsija" programs "Dependence"):)
P. S. Speaking about biological factors did not mean disturbing or alarming, asthenic, depressive or others neurotic and psychotic (or endogenous or endogenic in general) frustration - there on what that a stage without medicinal therapy often to not manage. Because these frustration provoke abusing alcohol, so-called " a secondary alcoholism ".