Seronegative clamidiosis

[Ketty]

:confused: Dear doctors! I ask you to help or assist to understand my problem plz. Twice for a year handed over PTSR on all the basic infections, except for VPCH, results in both cases - negative. Has made crop on a chlamydia - *quot; chlamydias i?aOO?N?U*quot;, the REEF - *quot; result doubtful, individual ?NO?*quot;. According to the analysis of crop on sensitivity to antibiotics, the scheme or plan of treatment is appointed or nominated. The control over 1,5 months - allocation of chlamydias in culture of cells - *quot; chlamydias are found out (individual includings or incorporations) *quot;, microscopical research soskoba (REEF) a urethra - *quot; chlamydias i?aOO?N?U*quot;. The second course of antibiotics Further follows. In the same laboratory has handed over serologicheskoe research on .trachom., C.pneum., C.psittaci on IgM, IgG, IgA - results all negative! As after the second course of antibiotics, and also syringing okteniseptom and candles with ginalginom, the itch and a burning sensation is not observed, the doctor does not insist on repeated analyses. I ask advice or council:

1. What kinds of diagnostics to use? On what IPPP?

2. After observation of discussion in occasion of IPPP at your forum, there is a question, can hand over CROPS on all to an infection? PTSR not all defines or determines?

3. Whether there can be a serodiagnosis lozhnootritsat. Or lozhnopolozhit.? Whether there Was in general (or still is) a clamidiosis?

Whether 4. there is such term *quot; seronegative urogenital O?a??n??*quot;?

Whether 5. there is a sense to replace a preparation Norcolutum with more modern? If yes, what?



Many thanks that have read up up to the extremity or end!:o

I thank Everyone Who will leave the answers.:D

[sania]

Yes, ponjatnie the seronegative clamidiosis exists. Therefore absence of antibodies cannot guarantee absence zabolvanija a clamidiosis in the past or now.

Revealing of chlamydias by methods PTSR or crop is sufficient for statement of the diagnosis a clamidiosis. The Positive take the REEF demands acknowledgement or confirmation by methods PTSR, crop or, at impossibility, statements of reaction with other set of higher quality. On different data, the REEF gives a method up to 30-35 % and more false positive results. And it is more than them at use of sets of poor quality.



Thus, in your case it is expedient to repeat crop on a chlamydia not earlier, than in 2-3 months after the termination or ending of last course of treatment and to be guided by its or his results.



About the control izlechennosti method PTSR exist the different points of view - one consider or count, that this method to apply is not recommended, since long time after treatment he gives positive takes. Others, on the contrary, consider or count its or his application for the control izlechennosti quite proved.



About Norcolutum - all depends on indications on which he is appointed or nominated. Though, certainly, it is far not the advanced preparation.

[leo74]

Many thanks to Jacob!:) my respect for the Forum and for Experts grows more and more, in process of my acquaintance to you! This or thus the best, that I visited or attended for last three months. Thanks for the help and the exhaustive answer. It would be healthy, if doctors Basic and Dvorjanchikov too have responded. Plz!

Norcolutum has been appointed or nominated for support ljuteinovoj phases + a follicular cyst of the left ovary - it was not found out in the second cycle. And I all drink Norcolutum (with 14 on 25). The doctor has left and has not left rekomenatsy on the third under the bill from the beginning of treatment a cycle. And so in this third cycle for 23 day have begun smearing krov. The allocation, ended in 7 days. Not knowing to itself to address for advice or council about actions in similar cases, has spent on drink Norcolutum up to imagined 25 days. You to me and so could not clear a situation: how to be in the given cycle - whether to drink Norcolutum or what else hormone you could advise? I would try to discuss it with the doctor (about adequate, and the main thing modern to him replacement)?

The only thing, what I nedoponjala - whether it is necessary to hand over CROPS ON ALL to the INFECTION???:confused: mycoplasmas, ureaplasmas, *quot; OO???*quot; and something or something else... (???) the basal temperature which keeps in the first phase that 37,0 that 36, 8 is not pleasant to me, but does not fall below 36, 7 - I read, that raised or increased t- in the first phase can specify an inflammation or an endometritis, or on even something: (



With the deepest respect, Olichka

[Sintezmozg]

I think, that after 2 courses of treatment of a clamidiosis to hand over analyses on mycoplasmas and the ureaplasma of sense is not present - they there cannot be. As they are much less pathogenic, than chlamydias.

In occasion of hormonal treatment you need to solve the problem only with the attending physician. To replace Norcolutum it is possible a preparation Primolutum-holes (the same structure, but the firm lets out or releases a Schering). This preparation is better transferred or carried, than Norcolutum. But it is even better to use preparations Djufaston or Utrozhestan is *quot; ?aOOOa?y?UN*quot; gestageny.

[Hymen]

Olichka! You discuss those infections which are accessible to diagnostics by method PTSR in Debatable club. Actually it is much more than them, and your problems can be connected with other numerous microorganisms occupying an organism of the person. You moskvichka, also can check up a status of a microflora of genitals a new method which is described on our page Rusmedservera - Microbial diagnostics

www./microbdiag

- There will see, what alternative variants can be. Though this list of examples now has considerably extended.

[mkorobochka]

To get rid of mycoplasmas it is not simple nearly. To cover on couple of months is easily. And here to cure... As recently it was found out, mycoplasmas plentifully occupy even tissues, pererozhdennye under action of the antagonists - chlamydias. Therefore to be checked it is necessary. But not at once, and through a quarter of year. On infitsirovannosti the population as mycoplasmas digit 60 of % already is called. I believe, in view of the forms causing *quot; OOa???OO?UN*quot; javleija (a la *quot; AEc*quot;) and all of 90 % will be.

And George Alekseevicha was to be warned: even the laboratory certificated strains konaminirovany them substantially (tens percent or interests). Therefore never it is impossible to be up to the extremity or end assured or confident, which patogen otvetstvennen for disease.

Differently, if a certain representative of banal flora suddenly starts to breed intensively and *quot; oU?UoaNO*quot; disease, means, someone helps or assists him.

[DianaGord]

V.Dvorjanchikovu. An idea, certainly, interesting in occasion of a role of mycoplasmas in initiation of an infection by a is conditional-pathogenic microflora. Can in the thin mechanism so it and is. There are no arguments against. But the matter is that the patient responds to the antibioticotherapia applied concerning a become more active or an activated normal microflora, and recovers. For ten years of use wide skrinninga on microbial markers we have got used to see microfloras UGT, that if at the woman instead of kandidy a clostridium at a thrush help or assist protivoklostridialnye preparations, and with antimicotic she is excruciated some years, will not come across yet us. And if streptomitsety with streptococcuses (they usually go in symbiosis) that it is necessary to apply antibiotics to which bacteria Streptomyces are sensitive, only then there will be an effect of treatment. And so on, the list can be continued - bakteroidy, peptostreptokokki, korineformnye bacteria, rodokokki, klebsiella, atsinetobakter... I Believe discussion around of chlamydias and mycoplasmas has the compelled or forced character as other information of the patient does not receive. But the microbe about it or this does not know that... And them by our estimations about hundred seventy taksonov (one bacteria) which meet at urogenital infections.

[AnnaT]

Dear Osipov. After perusal of the information sent by you, there were questions:

1. The address of your center, laboratory? Hours of receptions.

2. The price of research

3. For the control izlechennosti the same method?

4. Whether you apply to treatment standard schemes or plans of treatment of infections antibiotics? Use for naznachanija chemotherapies individual sensitivity to antibiotics?

5. What % of completely recovered patients? Whether probably full of treatment?



Thanks that have read up;)



I thank for answers, yours faithfully, Olich:cool:

[Natalja]

Yes. A problem. Who argues? And every time suffices us protivomikoplazmennoj therapy, is not dependent that there still is available in a smear. Paradox! Or a synergy?

In general, George Andreevich, sooner or later, it is necessary to search for markers of mycoplasmas all the same. So, you are waited with feats, and, in konechenom the bill, world or global glory.:)

[mclina]

Dear Olichka!

Thanks for interest to our method.

I respond consistently to your questions.



1. The address of your center, laboratory? Hours of receptions.

Our laboratory in structure of the Academic group of the Academician of Russian Academy of Medical Science of J.F.Isakova is in the case 2 (Polyclinic unit) Filatovskoj hospitals, on the third floor in Laboratory

Clinical microbiology, a room 301. Garden-OnO???an street, .15, near to M.Majakovskaja. An input or entrance in the case from the left party or side behind the second prominence or mamelon of a building. Preliminary warn me about the arrival on bodies 254-67-40 as we carry out analyses under the personal arrangement - the on duty service is not present. Selection of assay and treatment is spent at our gynecologist, Stoljarovoj Olga Nikolaevny. First it is necessary to contact her for primary survey and selection of assay. As with her to communicate and the answer to the second question I shall inform privately on E-mail.



3. For the control izlechennosti the same method?

Yes. Or it is simple izlechennost.



4. Whether you apply to treatment standard schemes or plans of treatment of infections antibiotics? Use for naznachanija chemotherapies individual sensitivity to antibiotics?

Partially - yes when such schemes or plans are. But as we diagnose a much greater circle of microorganisms, in comparison with the medical centers and clinical bacteriological laboratories it is necessary to use the schemes or plans taken from results of researches in various laboratories of the world where were engaged in corresponding or meeting microorganisms.

Data on individual sensitivity, certainly, we use, but taken as from specialized laboratories as while to spend such definitions on each concrete assay it is impossible, as the majority vyjavljamyh markernym by a method of microbes are difficultly cultivated or incubated or nekultiviruemy, or are not diagnosed by usual methods. By results, such approach is justified.



5. What % of completely recovered patients? Whether probably full of treatment?

It depends on the doctor. At Olga Nikolaevny recover, in my opinion, all. By repeated analyses which to me act. For fidelity, ask this question to her when will come on reception.

[Olchik]

V.Dvorjanchikovu. You are very generous Vladimir.... (I can not find your patronymic, the right, it is not convenient for me so to communicate, inform, please). But you not the first promise world or global glory, different premiums... (the saddle and the TV will immediately hand over - remember Plasticine to a raven?). But in it or this there is a necessity (in the analysis of mycoplasmas) and if will throw is sensitive in pure or clean culture, at once I shall make and I shall enter into the report of the analysis.

[Sve22]

Dear Osipov, thanks for the operative answer, with impatience I look forward to hearing to 2 question to the address of lukol@newmail.ru or on the forum specified in data. Specify please, whether your laboratory in August-September stops job?

To doctor Dvorjanchikovu, plz!

I have written to you the letter, soap.....

I can count on your answer???:confused:

[bobir]

I have received the letter. But there the text is not present, but podveshan any *quot; aNO??*quot; (*.bat). I which to open it or he has not risked.

[donibrasko]

It has turned out without everyones there musorov and stuffes it is not known whence stuck?

[GWEN]

To doctor Osipov.

With mycoplasmas not all so is simple. Them himsostav (as well as a gene), apparently, very much variabelen. It is possible, certainly, by perevivanija to receive rather pure or clean culture, but there is no confidence, that in vivo there will be a same -spectrum. Here selectively to suppress mycoplasmas (without antibiotics, etc. chemicals) it we can. Then on a differential spectrum (*quot; up to a minus ??N*quot;) it is possible to try for something to calculate. Probably, it should turn out.



P.s... Vladimirovich:)

[dchist]

Thanks, Vladimir Vladimirovich! There Is an old intention to borrow or occupy in it or this with Rakovskoj Irina Valentinovnoj whom, you should know, the big expert on mycoplasmas (in-O Gamalei). But I believed, that this diagnostics is well enough put by other methods and did not hurry to compete. If your way it is important - I shall search for an opportunity (time in day does not suffice!) to make in the near future. Give reason still!

[Tanja With.]

It arhivazhno! All usually used methods of diagnostics of mycoplasmoses are frankly bad. Thus, from one and a half tens kinds parasitizing (sic!) in the person of kinds, rutinno come to light or are taped 2-4. And those is or with tolerant reliability (ok. 70-80 %), but are bulky - crop, or is fast, but with ugly reliability (PTSR). Other methods and are worse than that. Meanwhile, the acting information on a role of mycoplasmas in various pathogenesises more and more guards. At last, general and plentiful kontaminirovannost by mycoplasmas of other microorganisms it is negatively reflected in reliability and their indication.



But, as you fairly mark or celebrate in job, for mycoplasmas it is difficult to pick up markers. Lipids, perhaps, leave only an opportunity of indirect indication (on a parity or ratio of separate representatives). But also in this case it is possible to count oshchutimyj on shift of a spectrum aside sterols (TG, apparently, to analyze yet it is not possible). To expand a spectrum of candidates for markers without replacement of columns and sharp change of regimens would allow diazometilirovanie or more complex or difficult schemes or plans of preparation of samples with its or his application. Then it would be possible to count on reception of the interesting information from partially or completely not replaced poliolov, free amino acids, etc. nitric substances to receive indirect svidetelsva activity in medium of some enzymes.



In general to make all this *quot; on ?N?aO*quot; hardly it will turn out. But it is necessary to make, all the same.

[Olga V.M.]

V.Dvorjanchikovu.

Thanks, I have like. In sterols, really, there is a chance to find diagnostic attributes. There it is usual *quot; ??NnnO*quot; viruses and mushrooms. There is still an opportunity of tracking of an infection on metabolites of a class karbonovyh and fenilkarbonovyh acids, alcohols and aldehydes. We gradually work in this direction. There is a program of the control over such 80 metabolites in a blood, a liquor - basically in any substance (for example - in a bog). Whether there are at you data on production mycoplasmas of similar bonds at parazitirovanii in an organism of the person or in vitro?

[Dietrich]

I know about kummuljatsii mycoplasmas of significant amounts of an exogenous cholesterin. The some people synthesize fat acids, triglycerides and carotenoids (from here, probably, provoking action of tomatoes at a rheumatic diathesis). The sum of neutral lipids of membranes - up to 60 %. The ureaplasma produces an ammonium from urea and a untied hypoxanthine. Probably, last it is possible *quot; ?aOy*quot; on the same columns after a methylation. Results can be much more precise if somehow to separate mycoplasmas from other cells (a fractionating on density, a ultrafiltration).

Fenilatsetat (or, that is more probable, the parity or ratio fenilatsetat/oN???YOa??), probably, is somehow connected with the elementary. At least, mecotic smears often have characteristic smell BnCOOH.

[rarsnan]

Thanks. I have copied it for memory.

[tuman]

Please. One of these days I all the same, hope to add the page, devoted to mycoplasmas. There nosologies in which mycoplasmas (for example, cardites) are involved will be mentioned. Probably, on some of them in your base already there are data. And more. Whether I to you (for myself and for you simultaneously) can reserve spectra before treatment of a clamidiosis, mycoplasmoses and mikstov? It is important for me by way of rasstsveta secondary infections and banal flora after treatment. I could ask to be surveyed the Moscow patients at you before and after.

[lawyer]

Yes, certainly. But it is desirable in November. Now at me it is a lot of job. Only special or urgent cases.

This good offer.

[vauh]

Thanks. I understand. I shall try to not disturb till November. Well, maybe, a time, for the sake of small vstavochki in the report on October kozhnovenerologicheskoj conferences.;)

[ilia-julia]

Dear, Osipov, I am going to shortly to address to you on research, very much me interested. It would be desirable to specify, what quantity or amount of microorganisms come to light or are taped by means of your method. On their your charts more than 30. If I am going to to be surveyed in your laboratory, whether means it, what disappears necessity in kultorologicheskom research on the basic known infections and the viruses, diagnosed in the usual way?



To doctor Dvorjanchikovu.



Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich, preparation Hlamitsid described on your site, is absent in computer databases of all drugstores of our city. In connection with heightened interest to the information on your methods of treatment of a clamidiosis, tell, where it or he can be got?





Yours faithfully, Olichka

[Karina]

Though Hlamitsid (in the status of a homeopathic preparation) it is officially made RGTS *quot; ?a?o?O*quot; and already with might and main walks on the world, in a retail chemist's network he does not act and, navenoe, still, a minimum, couple of years will not act or arrive. A problem that there are no the analytical methods, capable to confirm authenticity and the pharmacological validity of a preparation. Hence, as soon as its or his uncontrolled holiday to the population will begin, immediately there will be a falsification and sale of a preparation with lowered (in view of wrong storage) activity, that, finally will lead it or him (and ours) to discredit.

Also there are only two ways to it or this to counteract:

1. Completely to supervise its or his realization, constantly emphasizing, that *quot; to other addresses of branches ?NO*quot;.

2. Completely to guarantee on money results of treatment. And the doctors who have received the admission to application of a preparation instead of corresponding or meeting obligations to developers and manufacturers can provide this condition only. Now the right to unlimited application Hlamitsida, except for our doctors have only a few

Doctors Tolyatti GKVD. Thus, the charge of a preparation and productivity of treatment are carefully supervised.

Now the important documents, psvjashchennyh to this subject prepare some, then, probably, we shall solve how to simplify access to a preparation nonresident and foreigners. Possibly, any dealer network consisting of doctors-venereologists and working on the same principles of the full responsibility for result will be created. But I shall repeat: about free realization of a preparation through chemist's system of speech does not go yet.