Просмотр полной версии : Choice of first report EKO
Dear experts, consult, in capital clinics (well, is available in view of Moscow, Peter) the preference to what reports given-long, or short, clearly, what is solved individually, but, here for the first time on the basis of what gets out?
Here is how the age, for example influences it?
And, more particularly, here to me 34, all hormones, except for LG in norm or rate, LG it is raised or increased time in an one and a half... It is offered-u?a?-o and tsitrotajd
The girlfriend (will do or make in other center and city), age same where that all hormones, and in general all in norm or rate... There was an attempt on klostile (EKO), and on menogone and differeline, the short report, what basic difference between the short and long report, and in what now offer their advantages-disadvantages?
Thanks!
The preference to what reports given-long, or short, clearly, what is solved individually, but, here for the first time on the basis of what gets out?
In many respects the preference concerning that-or other report of stimulation is defined or determined by preferences of the doctor which spends the report. Undoubtedly exist also objective prichny (risk SGJA, the possible or probable insufficient answer of ovaries, allergic reactions to a preparation and a series of others) on the basis of which the preference is given this or that report. In detail enough variants of reports are described on one of sites of patients it here (http: // probirka.org/protocol.htm) With a part of the conclusions I do not absolutely agree, but for first acquaintance I think, that it is enough. Anyhow njuansy and any sort of a subtlety of relative YOUR treatment you can discuss only with yours vrachem.
Boris, thanks, for advice or council, I read also this forum, and I communicate for a long time at a forum khv.ru, I understand that all individually, therefore and I ask, by what criteria the report steals up, in fact first time still it is not known, what will be the answer of ovaries to stimulation by any preparation if stimulations before were not?
And with what you do not agree with a material on the Test tube?
What the statistics in occasion of the short and long report speaks, and, whether the truth that the report on Gonale, and tsitrotajde, now is considered the advanced and effective at a polycystosis?
Besides my doctors about attention listen to experience of the Russian colleagues, here and glory Kornilova has reached Kiev, and, you know...
Yours faithfully....
Uv. tereza!
I somehow left the report in the guest book of a forum on a test tube and spoke, that on pages of a site there are some discrepancies which only increase or enlarge appeal of this resource since there are no comments of the interested party or side, i.e. doctors.
I can naturally comment on series of positions, even on the page recommended by me about reports (but once again I emphasize, what is it already comments of the expert which, by no means, are not the basis for revision of the maintenance or contents of page and cannot serve even indirectly as references to editors of a site).
Further on several examples I shall state the comments:
Disadvantage of the report (from our observations):
...
By-effects in the form of inflow and a heat (climacteric attributes)
Even at longer application of more powerful or potent agonists (such as Zoladeks) frequency of these by-effects does not exceed 20 %. Any of my patients not prjadjavljala similar complaints. This by-effect can be considered or examined;surveyed only hypothetically, proceeding from pharmacological action of a preparation and it is taken most likely not from observations of authors as it is declared, and from anntatsii to a preparation.
Serious psychological expectation of start of stimulation
It is a question to the expert who keeps the minutes. In fact concept of start here rather enough. This argument is resulted or brought usually by the colleagues preferring application of the short report.
The effect of an after-action (from blockade of a pituitary body) keeps at some women till 6 months
Words it is not told or said about concrete signs which basically cannot be since stimulation by Gonadotropinums was spent, and the effect of an after-action of a preparation comes to an end at once after a cancelling of a preparation and purpose or appointment HGCH.
Possible or Probable negative influence on implantation
About *quot; eAciAaiAi*quot; bad, good effect of a preparation it is impossible to speak in a subjunctive mood, except for that it cannot be observation of authors (as it is declared in the beginning of this paragraph). If any data they should be given reason enough are cited.
Further on the same page:
Distinctive feature of the report:
- *quot; the gold standard Russian oOa?N*quot; the extremity or end of 90 beginnings of 2000
Not only Russian, but also all over the world. At least by results of interrogation Datamonitor/Datamonitor, Polycystic Ovary Syndrome: New Directions in Treatment , May 2002/I quote: Now the majority of centers EKO is used with agonists GnRG.
It is irreplaceable at serious forms of an endometriosis, a polycystosis and so forth
Just if it is a question of polycystic ovaries application of the report with application of antagonists here is more preferable, and as the trigger of an ovulation (for prevention or warning SGJA) it is possible or probable primeneni agonists.
Has age restrictions, i.e. it is applied for enough young patients till 30 years.
There are no age restrictions in application of this report. Not absolutely clearly whence pocherpnuta the information for this application or statement.
It is possible now about short. I read on page:
Blockade: agonists GnGRG, Dexamethazonum (Methypredum), Acidum folicum
Only one of the listed preparations is a blocker of receptors of a pituitary body. Two subsequent have no attitude or relation to blockade of a pituitary body.
Stimulation: urinary and rekombinantnye CHMG, estrofem
Estrogennye preparpaty (as a special case estrofem) any attitude or relation to stimulation of an ovulation have no.
The control of pregnancy: 12-21 after carry
It for the long report, and here for short for some reason
The control of pregnancy: 12 day after carry
In what here authors have seen a difference - I do not know, though I can assume, that different clinics appoint or nominate this date at own discretion, however it cannot concern to a difference between reports in any way.
And so on.....
To make comments on already made material is much easier than it or him to frame, therefore the purpose of mine the comment was not criticism of a site as whom as I and continue to consider or count from nonspecialists it is made very well, and only an opportunity to show, that any on-line consultations cannot replace internal dialogue with the doctor. Even, in it would seem standard situations, there is a mass njuansov about which it is impossible to speak in absentia.
P.S. I shall welcome, if the authors will be informed on our conversation, a site discussed by us. And that somehow not fine turns out - we discuss without *quot; originators OO?N?Ooa*quot;.
Also I wish to repeat the words already told or said in the guest book of the mentioned site, that available discrepancies, only increase or enlarge interest to this information resource, showing independence of the interested parties or sides.
Uv. Boris, to founders of a site, I shall necessarily pass your comments, and, I think, if you could, correct for some materials, all the information, with the signature, such dear expert as YOU as among readers of this site it is obligatory to eat both your real, and potential patients only will be glad to place....
And responses who as transfers or carries this or that report-it or -this;-thus on personal sensations of girls which several times did or made EKO.
And here all taki about me and my girlfriend, as private or individual :-))
I, At a polycystosis (on US now ovaries do not look or appear the truth polycystic..) a cycle regular (after laparosk.), 3 years after a laparoscopy, the ovulation-is rare or ovulation-seldom, LG it is raised or increased, -norm, stimulations were on menogone, up to laparaskopii, 2 times, the answer were not so... And 3 cycles klostila, after laparosk., on klostile was ovulations (US) on what it is better to begin the report?
She, the-always ovulation, the answer on klostile good (3-4 fol.), other stimulations were not, all in full norm or rate, the man's factor-is not present.
If you my opinion I would conduct on the long report interests.
And in the first and second case?
And, I think, if you could, correct for some materials, all the information, with the signature, such dear expert as YOU as among readers of this site it is obligatory to eat both your real, and potential patients only will be glad to place....
The information (or editing of a material) signed by any of experts just also will kill idea of founders of a site as information and independent.
As it seems to me, the cores fuktsii this resource, it is a view on a problem from the patient and psychological support *quot; friends on ?N??a?Oy?*quot;. And with these functions editors consult and without assistance.
I, At a polycystosis (on US now ovaries do not look or appear the truth polycystic..) a cycle regular (after laparosk.), 3 years after a laparoscopy, the ovulation-is rare or ovulation-seldom, LG it is raised or increased, -norm, stimulations were on menogone, up to laparaskopii, 2 times, the answer were not so... And 3 cycles klostila, after laparosk., on klostile was ovulations (US) on what it is better to begin the report?
SPKJA either he is, or it or him is not present. And it by no means, not only the ultrasonic diagnosis. Especially you add, that *quot; ovaries do not look or appear the truth ????O??U??*quot;, at SPKJA the cycle cannot be regular or at least about it or this it is possible to speak as about exception.
Then unsigned, but, more competently, whether that that did not cling eyes of the doctor, and entered girls into certain delusions, I have sent the link to founders of a site, on their choice...
Certainly he is, how much or as far as I understand, diagnostically there are 3 attributes ?n-PARITY LG to FSG, US, an anovulation proof, nereg. A cycle, and as corrected-sterility or -barrenness, and so, up to laporoskopii there was all and at full volume-parity or -ratio-more 3, utolshchennaja a capsule of an ovary, an anovulation, cycles till 100 days, on laparoscopy SPKJA is confirmed, made, the cauterization, after it or her a cycle regular was only 3 months, then everyones there methods-, well different in general, that has worked I do not know, but a cycle, about, a miracle, 2 years ago was restored, LG has decreased, the ovulation slips, and, there is an answer on klostil, before was.
About, here still a question, suggest meformin to start to drink for 3 mes up to the report-costs or report-is necessary;report-stands?
And, with caution on raised or increased LG offer the report on Gonale, and TSitrotajde.
And what features of conducting procedure EKO with SPKJA?
Uv. tereza!
As the operative measure has been spent and basic signs SPKJA resulted or brought (rather precisely) now are not present, and to plan the report probably it is necessary proceeding their statuses of your health for today. Considering the spent operative measure on ovaries (as a rule this decrease of quantity or amount of a functional tissue) is the bases to assume, that carrying out of stimulating therapy will not lead SGJA. Therefore I can tell or say only, that in this case the choice of the report of stimulation is based or founded;established in a greater degree by preferences of your attending physician. Spent randomizirovannye (what can be trusted) researches have not revealed an authentic difference in frequency of offensive or approach of pregnancy between reports with use of agonists (imeeetsja in view of the long report) and with use of antagonists. As if to Siofora (Metforminum) he is really used first of all for treatment of a diabetes mellitis of II type at faces with the RAISED or INCREASED mass of a body. Now there was a lot of jobs in which the opportunity of use of Metforminum at faces with a syndrome of polycystic ovaries (SPKJA) is studied or investigated. Since insulinorezistentnost, existing at the majority of patients with SPKJA in all tissues, is absent in ovaries, and excess of an insulin frames undesirable androgenic effects in the ovaries, resulting or bringing, as consequence or investigation to an anovulation. For this reason Metforminum is used at all CORPULENT with SPKJA, and also at some thin (if there are bases to think about insulinorezistentnosti) during nearby 3 6 months, that conducts to conducts to decrease of displays giperandrogenii and giperinsulinemii.
And what features of conducting procedure EKO with SPKJA?
First of all prophylaxis of the basic complication - a possible or probable syndrome of hyperstimulation of ovaries.
Well, in general of preference I -shall repeat Gonal, and TSitrotajd, it... The short scheme or plan with use by antagonists GnGRG turns out, well let and there will be, all taki first time, it is not known as all will go... And with Metforminum, I not thick, :-)) 165, weight-65 of kg, but speak that with it or him better the answer of ovaries... Here still peresdam LG, here still that, Testosteron-Depotum, DGEA, a hydrocortisone in norm or rate, and the skin-was awfully fat, can where to look still for these androgens :-))?
Boris, and in the second case (it I about the girlfriend) if it's OK, absolutely, both hormones and all everything, only as to the doctor is more habitual than preference the scheme or plan?
According to, short-long reports what prevails?
And on productivity, or not such data?
Thanks for answers....
Boris, to my girlfriend, she not in Kiev will do or make EKO, but in Ukraine too, have offered, as I understand the Short report with agonists GnGRG (menogon, differelin, the beginning with 2 d.ts.), and at me it turns out Short (ultrashort) with antagonists GnGRG (Gonal, tsitrotajd), too with 2 d.ts.v the general or common and that short, and this and in what their difference then turns out?
And more, deksametozon it is applied in all reports, or only if there are problems with hormones of adrenals?
Uv. tereza!
It is not known as all will go... And with Metforminum, I not thick, :-)) 165, weight-65 of kg, but speak that with it or him better the answer of ovaries... Here still peresdam LG, here still that, Testosteron-Depotum, DGEA, a hydrocortisone in norm or rate, and the skin-was awfully fat, can where to look still for these androgens :-))?
Till now I not vsrechal the literary data convincingly confirming improvement of the answer of ovaries on stimulating therapy in program EKO. Even what have got to me, as a rule, wore so-called *quot; ??O?U*quot; character and groups investigated or researched did not exceed 50 patients. I think, that the opportunity of such treatment now is studied or investigated and its or his purposes and safety are specified.
Application of corticosteroid preparations (as a variant of Dexamethazonum) is not obligatory at carrying out of the report of stimulation in program EKO.
Boris, and in the second case (it I about the girlfriend) if it's OK, absolutely, both hormones and all everything, only as to the doctor is more habitual than preference the scheme or plan? According to, short-long reports what prevails?
Now is a long report though in the nearest year-two this situation can change in favour of short with application of antagonists.
And on productivity, or not such data?
Such data are also I them has resulted or brought above. I can repeat once again: Spent randomizirovannye (what can be trusted) researches have not revealed an authentic difference in frequency of offensive or approach of pregnancy between reports with use of agonists (imeeetsja in view of the long report) and with use of antagonists (the so-called short report).
Have taken on arms.
Let's digest and shall try or taste dodiskutirovat.
(About a test tube)
Boris, thanks, to you for patience and answers, successes to you in your job!
-such data are also I them has resulted or brought above. I can repeat once again: Spent randomizirovannye (what can be trusted) researches have not revealed an authentic difference in frequency of offensive or approach of pregnancy between reports with use of agonists (imeeetsja in view of the long report) and with use of antagonists (the so-called short report)-
Boris, I asked about statistics of comparison of the long report with use of agonists and short with use of the same agonists...
Whether except for economy of stimulators there are advantages?
Whether except for economy of stimulators there are advantages?
There are disadvantages. More the spontaneous ovulation often is observed. Now this report (short with agonists) is applied extremely seldom and, as a rule, it is recommended at the insufficient answer of ovaries. Personally I have not seen an appreciable difference at application of this report for patients of this group.
At carrying out randomizirovannyh researches it is not established or installed differences in frequency of offensive or approach of pregnancy at use of these reports, however the meta-analysis (research uniting very big data file) executed Salimom Dajja has revealed the superiority of the long report of stimulation.
Boris Aleksandrovich! Hello!
Owing to Tereze has found out interesting and the helpful information at your forum concerning our site.
I one of founders of a site a test tube. (mine nik in an Internet it-is shown).
In the-first, we wish you to thank for the left record in the guest book and for the shown attention to our site. Your record has excited our small community and was on lips at all us during one club occurring.
The only thing, we and have not understood, than communication or connection *quot can threaten a site; clinics-?aO*quot;. On the contrary, we have seen in it or this a high-grade information part, which while with greater or big work svzjayvaetsja with us.
As a whole, your report imposed us and even has added enthusiasm during begun. Thanks you!
If do not mind, I shall dare to explain the arguments resulted or brought by you which you consider or examine;survey as discrepancy or erroneous comprehension.
The long report:
The citation-------------------------------------------------------------------------the Disadvantage of the report (from our observations):
...
By-effects in the form of inflow and a heat (climacteric attributes)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even at longer application of more powerful or potent agonists (such as Zoladeks) frequency of these by-effects does not exceed 20 %. Any of my patients not prjadjavljala similar complaints. This by-effect can be considered or examined;surveyed only hypothetically, proceeding from pharmacological action of a preparation and it is taken most likely not from observations of authors as it is declared, and from anntatsii to a preparation.
The answer: I have passed or have taken place through 5 long reports, and many girls who went under the long report noticed these phenomena (inflow of fever, etc.). Probably, many of patients simply have not time to notice it, or are too anxious by processes of expectation or preparation. But when many times you pass or you take place through procedure eko psychological factors of procedure are removed on the second plan. Paramount becomes prislushivanie to itself and search of new reactions in itself with crises of an exacerbation after failures of reports.
Summaries just also did not read. And if there all taki write about it or this, means we not too are not right.
*gt; the citation:
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Serious psychological expectation of start of stimulation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact concept of start here rather enough.
The answer: do not tell or say. Start on short or on long-was essentially are discernible. Especially if on the long report there is a decent delay of a cycle not so comfortably to stuff itself with blockers and to drive in itself in let short-term but all taki a climacterium.. On long reports process of expectation of start becomes torture and I think, that many will agree with it or this.
Therefore, we also have carried it in the category of minuses of the long report.
*gt; the citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The effect of an after-action (from blockade of a pituitary body) keeps at some women till 6 months
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The effect of an after-action of a preparation comes to an end at once after a cancelling of a preparation and purpose or appointment HGCH.Ni of a word is not told or said about concrete signs which basically cannot be since
Stimulation by Gonadotropinums was spent, and the effect of an after-action of a preparation comes to an end at once after
Cancellings of a preparation and purpose or appointment HGCH.
The answer: the Organism to an organism rozn. In fact even the same notorious horagon at all on a miscellaneous is deduced or removed from an organism. All depends probably on a metabolism.
But at us has developed proof predubezhenie that there is an effect of an after-action. To prove difficultly. Probably here we are unarmed. But unless real examples are not proofs when doctors put forward to us the version of an after-action of preparations??? Answers and views of set of doctors were reflected in a site as in a mirror to this or that answer of an organism of the patient.
*gt; the citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possible or Probable negative influence on implantation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About *quot; eAciAaiAi*quot; bad, good effect of a preparation it is impossible to speak in a subjunctive mood, except for that it cannot be observation of authors (as it is declared in the beginning of this paragraph). If any data they should be given reason enough are cited.
The answer: Our observations-it or -this;-thus our observations. We do not apply for scientific character, we would like to give representation about the order of things and any problems their possible or probable and marked or celebrated repeatedly arising in a real life.. (on eko)
Further on the same page:
*gt; the citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Distinctive feature of the report:
- *quot; the gold standard Russian oOa?N*quot; the extremity or end of 90 beginnings of 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not only Russian, but also all over the world. At least by results of interrogation Datamonitor/Datamonitor, Polycystic Ovary Syndrome: New Directions in Treatment , May 2002/I quote: Now the majority of centers EKO is used with agonists GnRG.
The answer: Here I recognize, that we were subjective. But are subjective by virtue of that the short report in Russia became
To be applied not too for a long time and consequently was and for us a novelty and consequently has got in the category fashionable, malolekarstvennyh, fast (on term) and vobshchem to many girls has brought long-awaited results after turns of failures on long reports.
*gt; the citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is irreplaceable at serious forms of an endometriosis, a polycystosis and so forth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just if it is a question of polycystic ovaries application of the report with application of antagonists here is more preferable, and as the trigger of an ovulation (for prevention or warning SGJA) it is possible or probable primeneni agonists.
The answer: This remark we shall consider and we shall make correctings. Thanks.
*gt; the citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has age restrictions, i.e. it is applied for enough young patients till 30 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no age restrictions in application of this report. Not absolutely clearly whence pocherpnuta the information for this application or statement.
The answer: From a life.. From concrete examples and applications or statements of doctors. To invent it to us well it is simple not under force:-))
*gt; It is possible now about short. I read on page:
The citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blockade: agonists GnGRG, Dexamethazonum (Methypredum), Acidum folicum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only one of the listed preparations is a blocker of receptors of a pituitary body. Two subsequent have no attitude or relation to blockade of a pituitary body.
Estrogennye preparpaty (as a special case estrofem) any attitude or relation to stimulation of an ovulation have no.
The answer: Painting reports with the indicating of preparations we at all did not carry Dexamethazonum to blockers or estrofem to stimulators. We tried to give the information on that what usually preparations and at what stage I take place to be appointed or nominated for reception. Therefore, the basic preparation is registered on the first and minor are specified further in sequence. But I believe, that the ear and it in any way will not touch eyes of the patient.. On the contrary, the potential patient it becomes clear as when to her can appoint or nominate. We do not forget to inform from pages of a site, that on any questions necessarily address to the doctor.
*gt; the citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The control of pregnancy: 12-21 after carry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It for the long report, and here for short for some reason
The citation:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The control of pregnancy: 12 day after carry
--------------------------------------------------------
In what here authors have seen a difference - I do not know, though I can assume, that different clinics appoint or nominate this date
At own discretion, however it cannot concern to a difference between reports in any way.
The answer: Yes, it agree. It is a difference in approaches of doctors and clinics. We shall note it.
*gt; only an opportunity to show, that any on-line consultations cannot replace internal dialogue with the doctor. Even, in it would seem standard situations, there is a mass njuansov about which it is impossible to speak in absentia.
Naturally, we too the same opinion.
Once again thanks that have found time and have disassembled us on ossicles or bonelets.:-))
Yours faithfully, It is shown
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